GenderAndWebsites

'Explanation: This page contains the discussion which branched off from the book reviews page (BooksToRead) onto wider gender-related (and discussion-related) issues:

-I agree that Jim Packer's style isn't everyone's cup of tea. Mary Evans' book is called "Woman in the Bible", published by Paternoster in the Biblical Classics Library series (so it only costs �). In fairness I should mention that there's a v interestingly written (and humble) article on the CBMW website, responding to the CBE declaration - I've been reading both websites to weigh them up. Midge

'CBMW' - this article, like many others amuses me a little when it says that women and men are EQUAL, they just have different roles. I see. Why then, do they believe that women should relate to men as though men were superior? Because that's precisely what they are saying. Joke for Fundamentalist Husbands: What's the difference between a child and a wife? The wife you're allowed to rape (in the name of God of course). Why is this? Well, women have to obey their husbands. If the husband decides he wants sex, well, his dear little sex-toy wife simply should not refuse. CBMW basically says that women were created for the pleasure of men. Men have one God - God. Women have two gods, God and their husband. And I'll tell you what is funniest of all: If you believe in what websites like the one you mentioned have to say, then you probably won't listen to what I'm saying at all. Why? Because I'm a woman - therefore I am irrational, weak, lying, disloyal - in fact, nothing I say is of any worth or value whatsoever! Basically, I am NOTHING. And that will suit many men very well, because a lot of them enjoy the feeling of power they get when are told by the church that their wives must 'obey' them, just like children! Surely, surely, you can see that a world in which people are treated with love and respect, and are allowed to USE their God-given gifts, is better than one in whicb hierarchy is sustained even in marriage. Or perhaps you believe, like so many 'Christians' that women have no gifts?? (oh, other than being a baby-machine, of course). If so, then why not go to a church in which the minister is a woman, and listen to her. Or perhaps you're afraid that she will actually be good?? Damn, this is Precisely what puts me off Christianity. The fact that in so many places I'll be treated like dirt because of my sex. And if you start going about such things, Midge, then I won't stay here for much longer. But, what does that matter anyway? If you believe in what websites like that say, then you won't be reading any of my points of view anyway, because they will automatically be inferior to your wonderful male thoughts. Alice

Midge: I'm sorry to make you so angry. I can well understand what makes you so angry about some Christians' attitude to women, and I'm sorry that the church is in such a state. But all I did was mention that CBMW article. Do you really think I'm going to start treating you like dirt? What makes you assume I've never attended a church with a woman preacher? I think we've got a lot to learn about how each other argues.
I hope we'd all agree that the attitudes to women you've mentioned are dehumanising, ungodly and unbiblical. But the CBMW article I read was saying people shouldn't set up a caricature of there only being one alternative to their own position which is the extreme opposite. I haven't read all of the CBMW website or the CBE website, but I certainly don't agree with everything I've read on either of them.

The way I see it, is that there either equality or inequality. A lot of 'Christians', to whom I referred in what I wrote before, believe in a kind of 'Animal Farm' equality, i.e. 'We are all equal, but some of us are more equal than others'. They like to emphasise how God loves everybody and that everybody is equal etc., and then start going on about how men and the church should treat women as though they are inferior. If you don't call being told to 'obey your husband' and that 'you can never be a preacher because you're a woman' being treated as though you are inferior, then I dread to think what your definition of inferiority entails. Alice www.equalitycentral.com

Andy Whoa there guys! Alice, no matter who you are you are completely welcome here no matter what, and you will be listened to and empathised with. Please don't go!

(the same goes for Midge and everyone else of course) {I'm not going anywhere} -Dx

I don't believe that Midge has said anything that was at all intended to hurt you Alice, but the fact that you strongly disagree with the web site he mentioned is something that will influence me when I get round to reading it.

By the way, we don't know what gender anyone here is anyway, so it certainly couldn't influence us...

I feel like I have to say something, but I'm not sure what. I feel a bit bewildered and scared to say anything. But I feel I need to at least try and defend myself. I mentioned the CBMW article because I like to hear from more than one point of view on any issue and to try and understand them and their arguments. Plenty of Christians believe similarly to what that article says, as well as plenty believing similarly to what the CBE article says, so I thought it was worth my trying to understand what the arguments are for both points of view and not just write either of them off as obviously unbiblical or 'worldly or pagan devices'. When I met Margaret Grudem, whose husband co-wrote the CBMW article, she certainly didn't seem to me to be her husband's slave, in which case I would've given the article less consideration.

Alice, I'm sorry if you found anything I said offensive or upsetting, or it suggested that I didn't respect you or your opinions. That wasn't my intention at all. You may not have realised or intended it, but I was rather upset by the things you implied about me (even when you precede them with the word 'perhaps') and it made me feel like giving up writing anything on this website again, let alone expressing my own opinions. But I don't want to miss out on all the good things I've enjoyed on this site, including all that you've contributed.

I think we can all learn more about how to get on with each other and how to express ourselves honestly without causing or taking offence. We need to understand each person's way of approaching discussion. For example, if I suggest a counter-argument to someone's point of view, I don't necessarily agree with that counter-argument unless I say so. I might just be putting it forward to help myself (and others) to think what's wrong (or right) with the counter-argument. If we only think about one side of an argument, we're not going to be able to defend it very well against people who disagree with us. So please don't think that I want to treat anyone like dirt just because I mentioned the CBMW article. Anyway, I stand by what I said about it - I think the writers expressed unusual humility

 (yes, for a website that asserts that 50% of the world's population is superior to the other 50%, I suppose it is quite humble...Hmmm....- Alice)

about the status of their own opinions and unusual love and respect towards people with differing opinions, whether or not you think that the actual opinions they go on to present should logically or do actually lead them to disregard women's views and treat them like dirt.

Midge

Since this page is about books to read, then I will mention another book that might clarify to Midge some of my ideas: 'A Doll's House' by Henrik Ibsen. It's not exactly a 'Christian' play, but the ideas it exposes are good. (Although I'm sure the CMBW people would say that the marriage in that is a good one). Anyway, Midge, I stand by what I said before about the Animal Farm type of equality that the kind of websites you mention advocate. Equality is good when it is beneficial to you...but when it's not, we can forget it. And I'm not talking about you personally, I mean 'one'. Anyway, 'Animal Farm' is another good book. You might say that I upset you, but if you start believing in the goodness and 'humility' of certain websites, then, as I said, it doesn't really matter how much I upset you because you will be viewing me as an inferior being anyway. But, then again, I wouldn't waste my typing on arguing with someone who viewed me as inferior anyway. So, the whole thing doesn't matter because I won't bother you again. Alice

Hi guys, I care about you both, and am so sorry that there's been this clash. I hope we can come together on this. Alice, I (as a male, probably very imperfectly) sympathise with the anger you feel about the way women have been and are treated, even by many Christians. Midge, I fully respect your wish to look at the different opinions held by Christians.

I don't think we should get ourselves into a position where we can't mention or discuss certain websites; as far as I can tell, Midge wasn't suggesting that he heartily agreed with CMBW, but that he thought it was worth examining their views, rather than assuming a stereotype of them (as discussed as a gentle attempt to relate to other views on the 'In Defence of Hypocrites etc' page) - what do you think about this, Alice? Do you feel that's OK?

All the best to you both; you're both really interesting people, and I hope we'll spend much time sharing and debating for a long time to come.

Love, DavidB

Oh, DavidB, you are truly the voice of reason. I agree with what you say...it's just that I am sick of having to defend myself all the time. All I want is for people to look at other people as people instead of constantly putting them into categories and saying 'ok, you have to behave like this because you are (a woman/man/French/whatever'. And I really like this website and I like the people on it. However, whatever is said on that hypocrites etc. discussion, I am sure that if I or someone else suggested a really racist website, then this would (quite rightly) most probably be repulsed by the people here. However, it seems perfectly all right to talk about the humility of a certain website which says that people like myself should not make decisions in marriage, should not take positions of leadership in church, should live their lives under the rulership of men. And if these things are always going to be talked about, then this will be another Christian website that I have no place in. Do you see what I mean? The only people who have showed sexism towards me are Christians. I don't want to keep on and on defending myself. And I don't want to keep reading things that hurt me. If there was an anti-men website or something, I'd feel exactly the same about it as I do with anti-women. If there's one thing I hate more than injustice, it's injustice carried out in the name of God. Anyway, you're probably getting sick of me going on like this, So I will stop. But, yes, I appreciate what you say DavidB. It was nice. Alice

I agree with what DavidB says too (as always). I'm sorry for all the hurt I've caused you, Alice, by referring to this article - it's due to ignorance not intention. I won't bring it up again. I hope you will forgive me and you don't hate me for it or think that I don't respect you. I hate to hurt anyone and the thought that I have done has made me feel afraid to log onto this website (GuiltyExpression, I mean) which had always been such an enjoyment and encouragement to me and you and everyone else. Midge