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Posted:
22.Aug 2003 - 15:20
I HATE lovelessness. I hate leaders treating you like dirt; when they have no time for you, when they treat your current beliefs with puzzlement and scorn; when they don't bother to try to understand what you're saying; when they dismiss you.
I HATE simplistic dogmatism. I hate it when I'm told that a part of the Bible only means one thing, even though it screams out that it means something else. I hate it when people say that God does or doesn't do something, when again I can think of half a dozen examples in the Bible where he does seem to act that way. I hate it when I'm encouraged to pass on a trite interpretation, rather than getting people to think.
This is going to be an unreasonable, angry, and unnecessarily negative topic. Please post in this spirit.
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Posted:
22.Aug 2003 - 15:27
I hate it when people tell me how to do my job better, when I feel that they haven't thought about how I already do it. I had an hour lecture the other night on how to be a better Sunday School leader - the advice included: getting the kids to do something different every 10 minutes, rather than give them a boring lecture; include games and activities, as well as a Bible slot; preparing throughout the week, rather than just doing the prep on a Saturday night. I felt like shouting, "Of course! Do you seriously think I haven't been doing these things? Have you any idea how much heartache and effort I go through for these kids?" But I didn't.
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Posted:
22.Aug 2003 - 16:20
Everything I started this site for: no trust, no openness, no honesty, no emotion. A huge vat of nothingness.
I am attempting to be empty and pointless, but please forgive me if I said anything meaningful.
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Posted:
23.Aug 2003 - 00:10
Why not? Did you write them a nice tempered letter later on instead?
>>I'm told that a part of the Bible only means one thing
Haven't you already said this on the sermons page?
BTW You might be interested to know (after your comments on the wiki study of Revelation) that said church has recently had a sermon on that very passage - see www. [you know who] .org/sermons/revelation_2_1-7.html
"It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.
I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...
And I still find it so hard
To say what I need to say
But I�m quite sure that you�ll tell me
Just how I should feel today
Oops - sorry - slipped into New Order mode there.
..but I suppose I've never experienced it. What really aggravates me about church is the one I grew up in, which I mentioned on the sermons page, where the adults carried on with the traditions they'd inherited (like praying and singing) but just kept saying they were unsure if there was any reason to believe anything was true - so we grew up thinking "What's the point?" and either became anti-Christians or Christians who took the Bible and the supernatural and everything more seriously. And also the kind of services we had at school which I wrote to the headmaster to complain about, that every year people were put off Christianity by these turgid archaic songs and prayers about "Grant that we being regenerate" and stuff. No wonder people think Christians are nutters.
That reminds me - I didn't get round to mentioning on Wednesday that it was St Stephen's Day - the day when there are big fireworks displays and they parade the Holy Right Hand of St Stephen round the streets of Budapest. Apparently this year is the first year that the parading of the Holy Right Hand is part of the official (state) celebrations. Check it out here:
http://magazin.ujember.katolikus.hu/archivum/0001/14.html
In its golden case (put a coin in the slot and it lights up):
http://www.communio.hu/luxchristi/szentjobbrov7.html
Doing the rounds in a provincial town (on the millennium tour to celebrate the 1000th anniversary of St Stephen's coronation):
http://www.balatonalmadi.info.hu/hun/p_jobb.html
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Posted:
24.Aug 2003 - 17:18
Another thing that really frustrates me about the church I grew up in is the Sunday school. It was OK I suppose till 'seniors' (secondary school level). Then it was just painful. There was only a handful of people, mostly girls, and mostly sent there by their parents who thought it was 'good for them', but didn't go to church themselves. When we sang choruses, my dad played a portable keyboard and most people were too self-conscious and embarrassed to sing at all. What we did in the group was based on a magazine called 'Partners in Learning', but I just remember it being either very dry or cringeworthy.
Once it was talking about the prophets of the Bible, and it quoted someone who said "The prophets didn't so much foretell as tell forth" - i.e. basically, prophecy isn't about predicting the future as some people think, they were just spokespeople for God, addressing social injustice etc. etc.
One 'lesson' was about praising God in our own language - trying to think of what we'd say as an equivalent to 'hosanna' and 'hallelujah' (as in Palm Sunday). The leader (our parents' age) said how when she was young they'd say 'groovy' and 'swinging hepcats', and we were supposed to think of modern day equivalents (e.g. "Jesus is wicked" or "rad" I suppose). But the idea that you'd say anything like that was just too ridiculous for any of us 'young people' to take seriously - and most of them didn't feel anything like that towards God anyway.
The most embarrassing lesson I remember was when it tried to be 'relevant' by getting us to perform a rap. It went "Questions are what this rap's about. What, when, why? Where, when, who?" (Of course, it had to be about questions, not answers.) And we had to get up in front of the whole church and 'perform' it.
It's no wonder some of the girls tried to bunk off Sunday school and hang around outside cos they were too embarrassed to come in. We could've done with some advice from DavidB. The only time people got into it was if we discussed the environment and stuff. It really frustrates me how we got fed some unappealing trying-to-be-trendy-and-relevant liberal stuff that didn't seem to have any point for any of us.
PS Apparently 'Partners in Learning' is now replaced by a magazine called 'Roots'...
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Posted:
24.Aug 2003 - 17:42
In some countries it's much worse - Baptists are seen as a dodgy minority by larger protestant denominations for example, let alone Catholics, and student groups set a rare example of unity to the other Christians. If you go to some countries though, where you've got Lutherans, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists and animists, it makes it easier to see what a lot Christians have in common.
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Posted:
26.Aug 2003 - 08:42
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Posted:
26.Aug 2003 - 12:09
No, sometimes I think it's best to just grit your teeth and get on with the job. Some people just aren't aware of the damage they do, and I don't know how to tell them.
> "It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.
Not half.
> I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...
I don't think my church was full of *bad* people. But there were way too many loveless, indoctrinated and indoctrinating ones. It's probably a good church in many ways, but it's given me scars which are still hurting and affecting how I relate to God. This is probably partly my fault, but surely I can't accept all the blame.
> It's no wonder some of the girls tried to bunk off Sunday school and hang around outside cos they were too embarrassed to come in. We could've done with some advice from DavidB.
?? Que?
> another thing that really saddens me is the lack of trust, even the dislike and hatred, towards other denominations, even those with similar beliefs.
Yes, this is shocking. One of the things that truly astounded me about my old church was how they wouldn't join with other evangelicals in a city mission. At what price purity?
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Posted:
26.Aug 2003 - 22:44
Mmm, conflict resolution (and reconciliation and peace-making) is a very rare gift.
>>> "It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.
>>Not half.
I find it hard to believe they actually managed to say that...
>>> I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...
>>I don't think my church was full of *bad* people. But there were way too many loveless, indoctrinated and indoctrinating ones.
Yes, of course, I didn't mean they were morally bad - just that they were bad at being gracious and loving family members.
>>?? Que?
Sorry to confuse you, I didn't mean you were good with embarrassed girls - I meant you were good at making Sunday school enjoyable and not embarrassing.
>>Yes, this is shocking. One of the things that truly astounded me about my old church was how they wouldn't join with other evangelicals in a city mission. At what price purity?
Still, it's progress. In the old days we would have drowned each other...
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Posted:
27.Aug 2003 - 10:11
I've always though DavidB was pretty good with embarrassed girls actually.
The problem is that everyone thinks they're right.
And they're not, because I am.
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Posted:
27.Aug 2003 - 23:02
On the topic of church, I will throw a few random thoughts in:
I have been going to a New Frontiers International church which is full of young professional people, fairly wealthy, meets in a posh school hall and is what I would call a commuter church. They are fairly new, about 3 years old and fund a hostel for the homeless in the local area.
Although I have found it a very friendly and social place, I do get the feeling they think they are the only ones who do 'church' right.
On thinking and praying about it, I feel I need to attend a church closer to home, with stronger community links and the chance to do some youthwork, although may miss out on some of the social interaction. On saying this to a few people from church, was met with almost unbelief as to why I would want to leave, what was wrong with me rather than what was not right about the church.
And yet I do believe church is important, for me to recieve and meet with God with other christians and for the church to serve the community and meet peoples needs. I do come back to the only way to change things is to be in the system but it can be very frustrating.
B
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Posted:
28.Aug 2003 - 12:39
I think what you say about changing things from within is very important - I don't ever want to become a bitter outsider, although I'm tempted to be most weeks! Surely with so many people who feel like we do in churches, sooner or later things will have to change. In fact, they are already changing, I'm sure.
A link between Bernie's, Andy's and my posts is the issue of *humility*. There seems to be nowhere near enough of it in many churches. Do I have the guts to say, to myself and in church, 'I believe x, but I'll gladly love and work with someone who believes y, and I'll even give them real chances to change my mind?' I'm not sure, but I'm closer to this now than I would have been 8 years ago.
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Posted:
28.Aug 2003 - 12:47
This is one of the things that I'm irked with myself about - in truth, I don't believe I am any good at doing Sunday School. This puts me on the defensive when people lecture me about how to be a good Sunday School teacher. It's just that I don't think they were passing on any advice that I'm not already acting on.
At least I don't think my Sunday School lessons are embarrassing to the kids. But I don't think they're enjoyable either, despite my best efforts. The kids are restless, vocally critical and argumentative. For their pains, they've got me as the junior youth group leader this year, so they don't even escape having graduated from the 10-12s class. Humph. Hopefully it'll be better this year.
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Posted:
28.Aug 2003 - 20:05
Having led a group with you this year at camp, I was very impressed with how you were with the kids, you are very real and genuine and kids always respond to that. You are encouraging and good at listening. You are calm and cool and have a genuine desire to help young people know more about Jesus. The Biblical stuff you prepared on revelation and the small group sessions was superb.
I think 10-12's are probably the worst age group, they are not kids and yet not grown up. Well done for presevering!
B
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Posted:
29.Aug 2003 - 09:55
DavidB and Bernie, I love you
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Posted:
29.Aug 2003 - 11:55
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Posted:
29.Aug 2003 - 21:49
On subject of NFI, I have been asked to lead a bible study in my housegroup, no probs have done this sort of thing before. I was then asked to attend a session on how to lead a bible study and also warned that i would get feedback on how my bible study was. Mmmmm.
1:1 the people are great, but the whole church culture thing gets in the way. That saying we did have a challenging housegroup this week on the holiness of God and how we can be holy. Thinking about the times I moan about my boss, is that holy, times when I think negative things, is that holy... There is still a long way to go!
B
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Posted:
31.Aug 2003 - 22:39
If you're not, then I don't know who would be!
>>warned that i would get feedback on how my bible study was.
I always think feedback is a good thing - as long as it's sympathetic, constructive feedback. In the Bible study group I'm in, there's no regular system of telling people what we thought of how they led, so the people who are less confident of themselves probably often just keep worrying they're not doing it well, and don't get enough encouragement.
Interesting to hear these reports about NFI churches. My local NFI church seems to be open-minded towards other churches, tho I haven't gone there often enough to really feel what their culture's like.
Related to humility again, another thing that makes me really sad is backbiting and nastiness, not between churches, but between individuals in a church. A friend of mine finally gave up going to church because of backbiting. It's nothing new tho - most of the churches Paul wrote to seem to have had these kinds of people (e.g. Galatians 5:15). But you'd hope that people who really have the Holy Spirit would change and be able to forgive and bear with each other and not poison the atmosphere of the church.
Talking of holiness, I was thinking of posting something about that - when I get the chance to think a bit more about it...
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Posted:
1.Sep 2003 - 09:40
Completely agree with the backbiting stuff. And I hate the way the "we are nice" culture pushes it underground so it's all so hidden.
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Posted:
6.Sep 2003 - 23:34
Sounds like something you need to get off your chest
Can't've been worse than mine...
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Posted:
8.Sep 2003 - 09:20
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Posted:
8.Sep 2003 - 14:50
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8.Sep 2003 - 15:56
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Posted:
10.Sep 2003 - 17:58
Have you ever experienced "All-Age Learning"?... another thing my church tried.
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Posted:
12.Sep 2003 - 09:30
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Posted:
29.Sep 2003 - 14:44
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Posted:
29.Sep 2003 - 15:36
Really difficult to know what to do about this. What are the ideas?
Will pray for you.
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Posted:
29.Sep 2003 - 21:38
I get that feeling most days.
Actually, at the moment I get it every day.
And this topic - spot on.
Grrr.
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Posted:
30.Sep 2003 - 12:50
Well, really I need to wait and see if he's saying what he seems to be saying, I guess. But he seems to think that we should all have a fairly dramatic 'call' from God to do certain things in our lives, and that God will often 'touch' us in a dramatic way which is a better way of growing close to him than the normal Bible-prayer-other-Christians-normal-life way that I relate to him with. He may be right, but it's making me uneasy. No doubt God can do those things, but will he always, for everybody? I don't think so.
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Posted:
1.Oct 2003 - 09:52
Let us know what he says if you do talk to him.
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Posted:
1.Oct 2003 - 22:56
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Posted:
3.Dec 2003 - 12:34
I think the problem I face is not really knowing what the right approach is in these circumstances. I'm not the worship leader, so shouldn't I submit to what they're asking me to do? On the other hand, doesn't a musician have a degree of liberty in saying that they don't think they can play a piece in a particular style and make it sound good? I think part of the problem here is that the keyboard is an ambiguous instrument; if I agree to play it, am I also agreeing to use the drum machine?
(In the end I didn't use the blasted drum machine, mercifully, because the programming they were asking me to do was rather complex; I claimed that I was worried about doing this, which was true, but wasn't my actual reason. I know that the worship leader *loves* the drum machine, so I couldn't think how to explain that I *hate* it.)
But beyond all this, I'm usually unhappy after playing because I feel that I played badly. All this makes me typically decide that I'm never going to agree to play again, but then I capitulate. Why? I suppose it's because I think that I'm moderately gifted as a pianist, and it seems a shame to force the other 2 pianists to play all the time. There's also an element of not wanting to bury my talent, which Jesus seriously takes issue with.
I think at the end of all this ranting (sorry guys, I'm still feeling wound up about it), my basic attitude stays the same. I'll agree to play if people are ill or unavailable, but otherwise I think I'm sufficiently busy with other things in the church to say no. Despite feeling that the music in church is terrible, and that maybe I could change it if it was my primary focus, I think I'll carry on concentrating on my youth work. I just wish that when I do play, I could enjoy it and worship God doing it - my current attitude is certainly screwed up.
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Posted:
3.Dec 2003 - 13:48
Someone in my church wants to nominate me to be a deacon.
So think yourself lucky
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Posted:
3.Dec 2003 - 19:11
I know that I may put myself before others more than I should but that said you still have to look after yourself sometimes. Keeping quite will never bring about change: Action and reaction are required.
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Posted:
3.Dec 2003 - 20:07
I wouldn't worry I played badly - people are usually too hard on themselves, and I don't think people keep asking us to do the same thing just out of politeness, if they really don't think we're good enough at it. And if you think you play badly, let me stand in for you next time I'm visiting, and you'll see what bad is!
People need to realise that people's tastes differ. If someone loves the drum machine and its groovy beat, they need to learn that some people don't. You'll be doing everyone a favour.
If you're not comfortable doing something, it usually means you shouldn't be doing it.
Anyway, I think you're right not to try to take on another role, but maybe you can somhow open up the music side of things to contributions from the congregation - they're just as much part of the worship, and they should be able to express opinions. Maybe a friendly elder could mediate. Or else resort to parody. (You can borrow my 'Soul of Christmas' tape again if you like.)
I'm impressed that the drum machine is programmable - you mean they have to put work in to make it sound like that?
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Posted:
4.Dec 2003 - 12:35
Darkly, the thing is that I've already told the elders about my concerns with the naffness of having a beat box, and as far as I can see it hasn't made a scrap of difference. This makes it hard for me to know what's best to do next - how often should I harp on about it? But actually I think you're right; I need to say something again.
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Posted:
4.Dec 2003 - 19:50
(Someone wants to nominate me to be a deacon)
I really think people should get involved with their church, and I really think our specific church needs lots of change.
I also swore I'd never become one of those people who are so busy doing "Christian" things that they have no life and are exhausted all the time. I don't think God wants that for anyone.
It's also a big compliment.
I'd have to give out communion stuff which for some reason scares me a lot. But that isn't a good reason.
So, any thoughts?
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Posted:
5.Dec 2003 - 11:21
Your concern about getting too busy is an important point to take into account; don't be pressurised into doing it if you feel too busy.
I expect you'd get used to giving out communion, even though it might be nerve-wracking at first.
All the best as you figure this out!
Cheers,
DavidB
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Posted:
6.Dec 2003 - 08:13
Pretty much decided to go for it (although I might not get voted in of course...)
Wish me luck!
...or... something more spiritual.
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Posted:
6.Dec 2003 - 17:32
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Posted:
6.Dec 2003 - 17:35
davidb, I don't know how often you have spoken to people about this and with what level of emphasis/force but I would imagine form knowing you that it was neither as pushy or frequent as you think. Because it has been on your mind it seems like you are always talking about it but I would hazard a guess that it was not so frequent that people will find another conversation pushy...
As Midge says "If you're not comfortable doing something, it usually means you shouldn't be doing it. " or at least you should be informing others of your discomfort.
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Posted:
6.Dec 2003 - 23:18
Amen!
>>how often should I harp on about it?
If you prefer, I can visit your church and make some loud comment about it just as a song finishes. But actually, having a programmable drum machine in church sounds pretty good - next time you're asked to play, can you build up some Rockerfeller Skank style breakbeat number? Then people would never dare to trot out some naff beat ever again.
BTW Did I mention our Sunday School had to do a rap once in front of everyone?
Ah - I see that I did.
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Posted:
7.Dec 2003 - 03:09
Now the reaction to that I would like to see.
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Posted:
7.Dec 2003 - 03:10
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Posted:
7.Dec 2003 - 06:51
tic
tic tic
tic
tic tic
da da da ... da BOOM
... cha ...
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7.Dec 2003 - 23:08
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8.Dec 2003 - 10:13
http://www.healthbodyandmind.com/product/6303421091/AsinSearch/1/
Maybe for Christmas...
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9.Dec 2003 - 00:16
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9.Dec 2003 - 08:22
This one ok?
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9.Dec 2003 - 23:14
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10.Dec 2003 - 09:15
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10.Dec 2003 - 20:58
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11.Dec 2003 - 08:39
I have lots of friends.
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Posted:
23.Dec 2003 - 20:27
I might be too late with this but I'm writing it anyway. (See my work avoidance tactics?!)
Fully support that thought - but won't rant about it here! Don't forget it though.
>>I'd have to give out communion stuff which for some reason scares me a lot. But that isn't a good reason.
I do that now. I'm apparently licensed (Anglican church) although I didn't have to do/learn/sign anything to achieve that! Have handed out bread once and wine once. And I know it's different in the Baptist church (which I think you're still in cos I think they have deacons but for someone who works in a church I have shocking lack of knowledge of the formal stuff) but it scares me silly. Although the second time I spent a great deal of it trying (and not succeeding) not to laugh. I mean, I get freaked enough about walking up in front of everyone to take communion. And now here I am having to hand it out - and it kind of feels like the people who do that should be very holy...
But anyway, if I had to choose a deacon you'd be one of my choices.
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Posted:
31.Aug 2004 - 11:48
What do you do / how do you feel when you really really want something to change at church?
For instance, the range of things that are preached about. Or the terrible drum machine accompanying the music.
What do you do? Do you confront the leaders? Would you write a letter? Would you, personally, leave the church? I'm not so much asking for advice (although that would be interesting) - I just think it's good for us to discuss together the range of ways in which we can be agents for change (or protest!)
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Posted:
31.Aug 2004 - 16:35
Do you know any examples of anyone else dealing with these problems? All I can think of is a friend of mine who left my church recently because he felt people looked down on him as he wasn't a nice traditional middle-class person, and he always felt not accepted by various people including the leaders. I can't help thinking this was mainly in his head tho. But the point is, he decided to just leave eventually. A similar thing happened to a friend in my home church - some sort of disagreement and he left.
Some churches are so big and monolithic, it seems hopeless to try and change them. And if the majority really like things that way, and it's not sinful, why should it change just for me? But surely in smaller churches, people should feel able to be listened to.
Whatever size the church is, I think there can't be anything wrong with writing to the leaders. They might not realise how you and others feel, that there's a problem for some people. It gets it off your chest, so you don't feel so powerless. They ought to be mature enough to accept feedback. And if they're not, it's better to know that and have the option of leaving. Or you can write to churches that you've already left - I've been tempted to write to a particular church that I don't even attend regularly, telling them what other people think of them, how they've made my friends feel...
Sorry if that's not helpful or constructive at all...
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Posted:
1.Sep 2004 - 08:43
I wrote a little paper for my church's leadership about how they should have a web site, what it could be used for, how it would work, and how I could help them for greatly reduced money.
As far as I know some people liked the idea and some didn't, so nothing has happened, and someone who wants to find a church in our town and looks on Google finds nothing to suggest our church is even open.
They haven't even asked me to come and talk to them or anything.
It's a good thing I didn't have much emotional investment in the whole thing or I'd be gutted pretty annoyed by now.
Anyway, my point was that by providing a real alternative you might provide an easy way to implement change rather than just feeling criticised.
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Posted:
1.Sep 2004 - 11:44
But in reality, it seems that what those in charge make the decisions and everyone else's opinion doesn't really come into it.
Unless you try REALLY hard and then just do something whether people like it or not - we are getting a data projector this week. It was on the agenda at the PCC when I started working for the church in January 2003 and I think it might have been there a while then. And it's only gone through cos someone on the PCC pushed it very hard.
Speaking as a church youth worker, I'd LOVE people to tell me about ideas they had and things they think we could do - I hate it when people think they are doing that but actually what they're doing is bitching behind my back. It's also hard when you're on your own trying to come up with stuff week in week out and the only feedback you get is very negative criticism.
I'd also like people to accept that just cos they think something is a good idea, it doesn't mean it's instantly possible or the right thing for the church. As long as that happens, then communication is good.
That's what I think anyway.
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Posted:
1.Sep 2004 - 14:46
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Posted:
2.Sep 2004 - 23:49
Exactly what I was going to say minus the "It's the last thing..." . Why? If you have a problem speak you mind - else you have no justification for having the problem.
>>it seems hopeless to try and change them.
Apathy is worst of all...
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Posted:
2.Sep 2004 - 23:52
Mate - MAybe there was a Church for me in Hull - but I couldn't find it - the first ones I tried had web pages. Really, really helpful. Esp. if you want a 10:30 or later morning service....
>>They haven't even asked me to come and talk to them or anything.
Maybe you sould offer again - maybe have a prototype to show...
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Posted:
2.Sep 2004 - 23:54
That's wrong - the Church is the people and although they need guidance the ppl FACILITATING the decisions should not make all the decisions... Maybe they should be reminded of this...
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Posted:
3.Sep 2004 - 08:50
Totally agree.
>>Maybe you sould offer again - maybe have a prototype to show...
After I wrote my above message I emailed the minister offering to come in and answer questions for the leadership. I got this reply:
# Thanks for this. It might be helpful. I think that the website will
# happen, but it depends on whether or not someone is available to update it.
# I think there is a mixed reaction as to whether or not it would be a
# worthwhile use of resources. We're also looking at the 'Find a Church'
# website, and having a page on that.
The point is that the system I've designed means the secretary and others can update it without any special expertise.
That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.
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Posted:
3.Sep 2004 - 22:49
>>
>>That's wrong - the Church is the people and although they need guidance the ppl FACILITATING the decisions should not make all the decisions... Maybe they should be reminded of this...
I agree a lot.
But I'm the youth worker and as such, don't seem to count as an adult! They seem to forget I'm nearly 30.
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Posted:
3.Sep 2004 - 22:50
>>
>>That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.
That sucks.
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Posted:
4.Sep 2004 - 16:54
College, uni, Social Services and other things seem to run on the basis of getting by with maintaining the status quo, and only acting when absolutely necessary. A good way to do that is to ignore any emails or letters, or even to make them vanish. When pressed, postpone action. But if you're standing in their office saying "Look - this is the problem and I want an answer" they have to deal with you. (To be honest, that's how I often cope with emails too.)
(Social Services actually manage to combine this with generating lots of unnecessary bureaucratic work to do. They wrote to me to say they'd be phoning me this Tues or Weds so I should expect a call. Then when they tried to do that on Tues they discovered they didn't have my phone number any more for some reason, so they wrote me a letter which arrived today, telling me they couldn't phone me on Tues or Weds.)
Here are some example tactics:
"Yes - that font's been installed for the last few years - you just can't see it."
"Oh - we didn't realise that graduates would be using the network over the summer. We'll copy all your old files on top of the new ones."
"Oh no - we can't unblock their sewer - that's the builders' responsibility - we'll just forget about the message."
"But if we have an overhead projector my daughter won't be able to read it as her eye-sight isn't good and no one ever thinks about people like her."
"But I don't think we should be enthusiastic as Christians."
"But didn't candles only come in with the Oxford movement?"
So - pin your leaders/fellow servants down and make them listen to you!
PS I'm reading "Catch 22" at the moment. It all seems very familiar...
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Posted:
4.Sep 2004 - 18:07
>>That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.
Nice one
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Posted:
4.Sep 2004 - 18:08
Bieing a youth worker has nothing to do with it - you are an equal in the Church. Maybe they should be reminded of that as well.
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Posted:
4.Sep 2004 - 18:12
You can still have paper copies available - everywhere else does and yes - we do think about everyone.
>>So - pin your leaders/fellow servants down and make them listen to you!
Word, brother!
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Posted:
5.Sep 2004 - 20:46
That's the obvious answer, if you can get a word in edgeways...
Oh, and another one - there was a meeting of several churches (different denominations, despite the "complete disunity" between us
) to plan a Christmas event, and us 'young people' seemed to be giving the most ideas, and then one person turns round later and says "Let's have a contribution from the young people for a change, instead of them always just complaining about things."On a tangent but kind of under the same heading - it's kind of offputting when people sit a few rows in front of you in church wearing very skimpy tops, particularly when the tops are completely concealed by the back rest of the chair, making them look topless... Created an interesting impression anyway. Even worse, aparently there was a speaker at a conference (not a Christian conference!) who decided to wear basically a bikini, and she was quite short, so it was completely hidden by the lecturn and you couldn't see any clothes.
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Posted:
6.Sep 2004 - 12:35
Something I can ask you about (which is not in the public domain, but less important): I've been asked if I'd be willing to join the leadership of my church as an elder. Don't know what to think. On the one hand, I'd love to be involved in eg the teaching programme for the church, and looking after people. On the other hand, I'm worried that (a la my first paragraph) there might be serious controversies I'd have to deal with. But then, I might have to deal with those anyway...
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7.Sep 2004 - 15:50
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7.Sep 2004 - 16:35
Is there any way you can try to move the debate away from abstract theology? We seem always to be arguing about what we believe, when really what seems important is what comes out of those beliefs in our actions. Obviously the line between abstract and practical theology is very blurred, but can you move the debate (if only in your own mind...?) towards the practical end? Then it might become clearer what the right response is.
This is, of course, coming from my own biased position of wanting to cut down theological debate and replace it with trying to show kindness etc. It just seems like debates on abstract things are often very destructive with no useful outcome.
Does that mean we shouldn't hold beliefs or stand up for them? Actually, I don't know what it means and it's just a feeling, so ignore me.
Sorry
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Posted:
7.Sep 2004 - 20:00
I suppose the problem is when some people think the church should take a certain position on such issues and express it overtly and explicitly. Can we convince them to change their minds? Should we? Which issues are important enough to define the church by?
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8.Sep 2004 - 08:56
>>take a certain position on such issues and express it overtly and explicitly.
>>Can we convince them to change their minds?
No.
>>Should we?
Certainly not in every case.
>> Which issues are important enough to define the church by?
Exactly. I am stuck between _being_ a modern man (as opposed to postmodern) and _wanting to be_ more flexible. In principle I want very little to matter to me but in practice almost everything does.
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Posted:
8.Sep 2004 - 16:50
It will be difficult, but yes, I'm in the process of telling the leadership my feelings in detail.
> Is there any way you can try to move the debate away from abstract theology? We seem always to be arguing about what we believe, when really what seems important is what comes out of those beliefs in our actions.
Thanks for this advice, I'll think about it. One thing I'm struggling with is that although *I* may not want to argue about beliefs (although I sometimes will), *other* people in the congregation certainly will in some circumstances. What do you do then?
> Exactly. I am stuck between _being_ a modern man (as opposed to postmodern) and _wanting to be_ more flexible. In principle I want very little to matter to me but in practice almost everything does.
Hear hear!
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Posted:
20.Sep 2004 - 18:54
I suppose the answer to that is - you need a meta-discussion. You won't be able to agree what the church should choose to highlight, unless you agree what the church is for, and why it should highlight any particular beliefs or practices, and what it means to be part of the church, as an elder or not.
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21.Sep 2004 - 02:16
I was thinking tonight about how alien I feel people are who disagree with me about predestination. I feel like they worship a God as different from the one I worship as Muslims or Jews. But they're everywhere in the church, and I'm supposed to work together with them as if we had common goals!
Maybe more on this in an article sometime.
Or how about a BibleExperiment on Romans 9?
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Posted:
21.Sep 2004 - 11:35
I think there really can be widely different understandings of God if you compare the extreme ends on this issue. But there are many people who, if you probe, have some sort of internal compromise going on.
The surprise to me is that I *do* seem to have common goals with people who believe very differently on this. Most Calvinists and Arminians are wanting to prioritise worshipping God, living for him more and more, and evangelism. It's a curiosity to me that different understandings of predestination don't impact our behaviour more. Obviously both 'theories' generate similar behaviour - I think this is because of other components in the 'theories' which are the same - eg judgment, Jesus' atoning death, sin, hell, heaven etc.
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21.Sep 2004 - 14:53
I agree it is surprising how much you can have in common with someone who disagrees with you on something incredibly important.
Having met you and seen you in action you clearly don't extrapolate predestination to the conclusions I feel forced into by it.
One day I'll gather my thoughts on this and write about it, but it's very sensitive for me so I'll have to be careful.
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Posted:
21.Sep 2004 - 22:33
But it's always better to realise that, than assume you agree on those issues and try to understand each other on things that follow on from them. As we've seen in previous discussions...
>>I think this is because of other components in the 'theories' which are the same
Maybe also because neither 'theory' can be put into practice and lived out consistently in its extreme/pure form.
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22.Sep 2004 - 14:17
Maybe it's better not to talk about things at all, like the Quakers.
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22.Sep 2004 - 21:49
But only if you get together with other people who agree with you on that...
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24.Sep 2004 - 08:51
Just a thought, and not a very well though out one, either.
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Posted:
25.Sep 2004 - 16:00
Andy did you ever become a deacon?
Back to David B's question
As for ways of doing stuff at church, the way I've always tended to do things is find out who is in control of a particular thing and find their opinions etc but find how I can help do the stuff and generally I've got some compromise on what I hoped for.
I will say that I have generally lost a lot of time and invariably money in getting to that compromise but I think it's worth it.
oooh last one is the can't be arsed factor. Some things you can just change and most of the time people can't be be arsed to undo it if it's small enough or works better than the last thing.
I know this method won't work in some churches but I don't go to them!
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Posted:
25.Sep 2004 - 18:28
A related phenomenon is where people stick with the status quo because of inertia rather than cos they want to resist change. They're quite happy for someone to come along and improve things, as long as they don't have to do it themselves.
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25.Sep 2004 - 20:39
No, got rejected.
Turns out to be a good thing as I haven't got enough time anyway.
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Posted:
16.Oct 2004 - 22:12
They had communion
I felt like it was just a conveyor belt of meaningless sipping and wafer eating so I didn't go.
A little later felt ashamed that I thought they didn't reach my targets of accepted holyness.
Can anyone tell me which side of me is right ?
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18.Oct 2004 - 10:41
Neither!
It's up to you whether you feel comfortable taking communion with people.
Personally, I think communion is the most fantastic way to express and experience our one-ness, and so a great thing to do when you're joining a church, so I'd encourage you to try it and see.
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Posted:
18.Oct 2004 - 19:56
I shall now stay at this church having met several normal people and will tell you of any house group issues.
I might add that there was a guy who was very good at welcoming really did make a huge difference. He invited me to church in the evening and if it was not for him I probably wouldn't have gone to this church.
~
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Posted:
18.Oct 2004 - 21:50
> I felt like it was just a conveyor belt of meaningless sipping and wafer eating
I often struggle to rouse my feelings beyond communion being like a conveyor belt - trying to feel it's meaningful and makes me 'feel blessed'. But I try to remember that Jesus has invited me to take the bread and wine, and it's not my job to feel anything - I just have to accept His invitation humbly, and if He wants to, He'll give me good feelings. And even if I don't feel anything special, it's still a sign that everyone who shares the bread and wine is really linked together in a body like Andy says (hence the name 'communion' = fellowship), and I always feel that unity when we say the grace afterwards - I think it's amazing that when we say "be with us all, for evermore", it really means for ever, not just while we're still around on earth or in this particular church.
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19.Oct 2004 - 08:05
Midge I know what you mean.
Giving up tea and coffee could be a good psychological trick to wrest back control of your life from the confusion...
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Posted:
27.Oct 2004 - 23:24
It's the little things in life.
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28.Oct 2004 - 17:08
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30.Oct 2004 - 11:03
I forgot to sign in again and am about to go on holiday so I'm typing this quickly seeing as I haven't actually packed yet...
Cool Wave about church!
I find giving out communion really makes the whole thing seem like a conveyor belt. After you've said "the blood of Jesus keep you in eternal life" a dozen times you feel like you're talking rubbish.
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1.Nov 2004 - 19:18
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1.Nov 2004 - 21:38
Communion - I think I might have more of an insight into why I didn't like the communion at church.
I want to share my faith and I want to express my faith but both aspects are not fulfilled by people queing up for their bit of wafer and modest sip of wine whist not talking in what feels like a horrifically fake moment of humbleness established by an even more horrific silence where you can look no-one in the eye.
Everything feels false and tense. For me the ritual has become more important than what is being done and so I dislike it.
I would much rather have something far more irreverent with more joy or passion or just belief than the way it is done.
sorry this became a small rant
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Posted:
2.Nov 2004 - 14:14
As in Douglas Coupland's books and how he portrays life, and the small things in it - click on [Search] and type in Coupland to see all our mentions of him.
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Posted:
2.Nov 2004 - 23:12
Can't believe I have never read that thread about what everyone is reading.
Since starting the course I have read very little mainly because of lots of socialising which will soon phase out as everyone gets to know one another.
I also didn't know there was a search button on this web site. Andy you are amazing.
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11.Nov 2004 - 08:43
Nothing to do with me - I just installed the system.
I really should upgrade it, but it's tricky...
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Posted:
29.Nov 2004 - 11:50
Having to deal with a worrisome one at the moment. A chap's been invited to speak at our church - last time he came, he upset several people, most of whom have left the church. It's a matter of debate as to what he actually said, but he was understood to say that if you're not healed it's due to lack of faith, or sin, or a generational curse etc.
The people who invited him really can't see the problem, and see any offence taken as people not being forgiving towards him. Why is there no instinct to defend the weak and broken?
Please pray for me, that I'll know what to input about this - I'm discussing it with key players tonight.
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30.Nov 2004 - 00:23
I'm fuming for you davidb. You're very brave to confront it at all. Good luck.
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30.Nov 2004 - 14:59
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30.Nov 2004 - 17:30
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5.Dec 2004 - 18:21
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6.Dec 2004 - 13:44
At the evening meeting, though, he was making it sound like if you fear God, you'll have a happy wife, lots of kids, and live to an old age - now, the Bible says these sort of things, but it qualifies itself. In a given Psalm, it says these things, but if you take the Psalms as a whole, it shows that sometimes bad things happen to good people. I feel as though our speaker wasn't (a) pastorally aware and (b) interpreting a few lines of the Psalms at the expense of their overall balance.
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6.Dec 2004 - 18:42
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9.Dec 2004 - 13:37
It is so important.
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10.Dec 2004 - 10:32
Just completed my Biblical Studies essay of Job, the essay was about how the book shows what God is like. I always liked Job, but doing the essay made me really study it.
I think we all need to rest in God's grace a bit more, and accept his mercy. He has already forgiven the sins we're going to commit later on today, tomorrow and next week.
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23.Feb 2005 - 17:02
www.ptmin.org/emerging.htm
i don't know how long they are on sale, but i recommend them to everyone.
Jeanette M.
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23.Feb 2005 - 17:35
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24.Feb 2005 - 20:29
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24.Feb 2005 - 20:36
By selling over priced books to the masses?
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24.Feb 2005 - 23:48
God bless,
JM
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25.Feb 2005 - 08:04
I hope we haven't offended you.
What kind of church do you think would be more welcoming for you personally?
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26.Feb 2005 - 17:31
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6.Mar 2006 - 11:32
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13.Mar 2006 - 13:15
Yes, but isn't it tragic that the image of Christ is not clearly shown in so many Christians? Shouldn't love and unity be one of the first things God transforms about us?
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13.Mar 2006 - 18:34
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14.Mar 2006 - 13:51
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16.Mar 2006 - 15:09
AML
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16.Mar 2006 - 17:04
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25.Mar 2006 - 12:54
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27.Mar 2006 - 11:26
But doesn't this happen at some level all the time, no matter what church you're in?