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Feeling really lost about the absolute Truth |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:44 | |
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>>BTW I always feel much more confident about my beliefs when I'm with other people who agree with me, and when I'm worshipping God. Which is why I think it is all bollox. Of course you belive things when everyone around you does to. This is the _only_ reason cults work... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:47 | |
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>>...I always feel much more confident about my beliefs when I'm with other people who agree with me... Also, that is a weak argument for a weak minded person. (Not that I am targeting you as an individual.) Why be a sheep. If you can't believe on your own you why believe?????? What sense does that make? Stand on your own two feet and sound off like you have a pair. |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:48 | |
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>> I have to remember there are very clever people on both sides. Another reason I feel justified in my doubts. |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:55 | |
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>> But the one which stood out for me most is the issue of hell. That seems to be the biggest stumbling block for most people in Britain at least, and it's what I find the hardest to understand. That completely depends on whether you believ in that or whether it is just the nurture of society that puts it into your head that it exists and at the same time defines that relegion is wrong. A bit of a contradiction but what I have seen. |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:58 | |
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>>So where does your life get its purpose from? From goals, ambitions and aspirations... >>So what does a purposeful life without God feel like? Is it based on anything, or is it just a feeling of conviction that presents itself, like a conviction that God is (not) there? Occasionally I think I can imagine that feeling, but then life comes up and confronts me with its purposelessness. It feels fake when I think god is there. It has a bias towards me but who has a life that doesn't. What purposelessness in life??? Do you not have goals, ambitions and aspirations??? |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:00 | |
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>>And another thing - it seems so hard to convince anyone else to follow Jesus that I find myself doubting it ever happens - and when people do become Christians (not through my efforts) it amazes me that they're really convinced by it and I hope they won't be disappointed when they get to know more! I'd like to see the % of "conversions" that drop the faith... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:06 | |
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>>>>What do you mean, the bottom line? >> >>Oh dear, I knew I'd have to explain that. I mean, it's all very well believing you should worship God this way or that way in this life, and people don't mind that (though if you're Glen Hoddle and you suggest that disabled people are paying for past sins, that can be a problem), as they can take it or leave it. But if you say, after we die we're all going to heaven or hell, and this is how God judges us... then people feel it's a bit more significant and personal. Why should one be better than the other? You don't know that disability is not a punishment for sin... The thing that pisses me off most about so called christians ( closely followed by those who are judgmental) is the complete disunity between various 'fractions': baptist, methodist, anglican, etc... If Jesus is the "way the truth the light" why the misalignment?? That is yet /another/ reason for my belief that it is fucked up... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:08 | |
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>>Yeah my friends we offended that I "choose" to believe that. Of course you chose to believe! For one you would tell me you have free will and for another you make the decisions in your life: Your and my beliefs... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:13 | |
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>>Do they claim they "choose" not to believe it? Yes... >>And do they lay into anyone else apart from you? "Lay into" is a rather hard way of putting it. Do you find me too confrontational?? To answer your question I have just as many questions and disbeliefs with other religions, cults and franchises... Although I admit I know more chritians and more about christianity than any other religion, cult or franchise... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:15 | |
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>>(a) they still seem to think some purposes are good and some aren't - e.g. why 'help the poor', rather than 'the survival of the fittest'? (or 'shoot the poor'?) Society requires rules. I want to live in a society wher I don't feel threatened.. >>(b) the idea of creating your own purpose and meaning doesn't satisfy some people's hunger for it. Not me... >>And how do I decide which value system to choose? Why should I choose secular humanism rather than any other option? Again, two feet and having balls.... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:20 | |
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Right. That's it fpr tonight. I'm gonna be knackered in the morning but felt like i had to catch up on this thread. You have, I don't know like... ummm... 13 replys from me across the board.; I'll hit othe rthreads as and when... Dx - Peace and out... |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 02:20 | |
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[E.T. stylee] |
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| andy | Posted: 29.06.2004, 09:31 | |
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>>Which is why I think it is all bollox. Of course you belive things when everyone around you does to. This is the _only_ reason cults work... Exactly the same is true of believing atheism. You do tend to be influenced by the people around you. |
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| andy | Posted: 29.06.2004, 09:37 | |
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>>... the complete disunity between various 'fractions': baptist, methodist, anglican, etc... If Jesus is the "way the truth the light" why the misalignment?? That is yet /another/ reason for my belief that it is fucked up... Most denominations agree on most theology. (An exception is Catholicism which disagrees on some relatively important things e.g. can a non-God human (i.e. not Jesus) live a perfect life (Mary), but it still agrees on the most important stuff i.e. God created the world, we need to be saved,Jesus died for our sins, Jesus is both God and man.) Denominations tend to disagree on the way of electing/appointing a leader, what sort of tea to serve and whether smelly things are good or bad in church. They sometimes also disagree on what implications their theology has for everyday life, for example a greater emphasis on evangelism or worship etc. I see this as part of the rich tapestry of life God has made - there's a bit somewhere where it says some of us are called to be evangelists, others other things - quote anyone? |
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| andy | Posted: 29.06.2004, 09:40 | |
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>>Of course you chose to believe! For one you would tell me you have free will and for another you make the decisions in your life: Your and my beliefs... I think I choose to act on my beliefs, but I don't think I choose to believe. For example, if I decided I didn't want to believe something, how would I go about stopping? |
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| andy | Posted: 29.06.2004, 09:42 | |
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>>>>...I always feel much more confident about my beliefs when I'm with other people who agree with me... >> >>Also, that is a weak argument for a weak minded person. (Not that I am targeting you as an individual.) Why be a sheep. If you can't believe on your own you why believe?????? What sense does that make? Stand on your own two feet and sound off like you have a pair. No, _that_ is an attack that is misdirected. It was not argument, but an admission, perhaps a "guilty expression". It certainly wasn't supposed to convince you of anything, and you are unfair to treat it as such. You yourself admit your opinions and beliefs are influenced by others, and this was just an admission of the same thing, so back off. |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 20:21 | |
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>>... you are unfair to treat it as such... so back off. My bad - my apologies. Combination of strong views and strong wine... I sincerely did not mean it as a personal attack - even if it read that way. Dx |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 20:22 | |
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>>I think I choose to act on my beliefs, but I don't think I choose to believe. How does that fit in with free will? |
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| darkly | Posted: 29.06.2004, 20:28 | |
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>>Exactly the same is true of believing atheism. You do tend to be influenced by the people around you. I think to a far lesser extent, as 'non-believers' have a more diverse opinion of what they believe - from the possibility of a god, to definitely a god but not in any particular religion to no god at all. |
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| Midge | Posted: 29.06.2004, 22:00 | |
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Arggh where do I start??? Here I think: >>>>So where does your life get its purpose from? >>From goals, ambitions and aspirations... Circular. Slightly more constructive than other replies that I'm capable of at the moment, such as that great quote from "Harry's Cat". |
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| Midge | Posted: 29.06.2004, 22:36 | |
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>>All kinds of things e.g. it's clearly a myth - you can see how it built up, how can you believe in a God who puts people in hell, but the hardest one for me at the moment is just a kind of look of shock that you could believe something so clearly wrong... I was just thinking - the initial reaction I get is probably slightly different. Rather than "How can you believe in something so scientifically ridiculous?" it's more "How can you believe in something so morally / culturally ridiculous and politically incorrect?" People are quite happy for me to choose to believe some myth, but if I say I want to go abroad and help people who are translating the Bible into their own languages, that's seen as distastefully inappropriate and old-fashioned. As I was walking over to the dept yesterday to hear a visiting speaker, I was thinking about the way some people react to my future plans. (The sensible life ambition for them is to get well known in academia.) So it was great to talk to this world-famous linguist over a curry afterwards and hear her enthusing about my plans. (She's written about interpreting the Bible and things, as well.) There are some sympathetic academics out there! She's a Christian, but there's another well-known linguist who isn't, but because he's sympathetic to Bible translators, some conferences in the US deliberately don't invite him. Such is life. |
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| Midge | Posted: 29.06.2004, 23:26 | |
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Sorry Darkly - I tried to think what to reply, but there are just too many things I can't follow. Maybe I need to practise thinking with my pair. |
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| Midge | Posted: 30.06.2004, 12:37 | |
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>>Why live to work when you can work to live. It is easy to decide what you feel like you are missing out on. and then do it. Work to fulfil your appetite for life. May be easy for you, but not for these people who don�t have much appetite for life or can�t work out what�s missing. They try different things but they still feel unsatisfied. >>>>In practice, I find they just can't believe in something they think is invented. >>So believe in what you can feel, touch and see. They do. But it�s not enough for them. >>>>And our instincts (e.g. selfishness) seem more real than invented values and threaten to override them when it comes to choosing how to act. >>Not necessarily. But aye, why should real values not override invented ones? I think they should. But people who tell me we need to �create our own meaning� aren�t happy with the idea that our natural instincts should override their nice humanistic ideals. >>>>What - you mean if God exists, we don't have a life? >>I don't think god exists... So? The statement �if God exists, we don't have a life� doesn�t imply that God exists. >>>>BTW I always feel much more confident about my beliefs when I'm with other people who agree with me, and when I'm worshipping God. >>Which is why I think it is all bollox. Of course you belive things when everyone around you does to. This is the _only_ reason cults work... >>Also, that is a weak argument for a weak minded person. (Not that I am targeting you as an individual.) Why be a sheep. If you can't believe on your own you why believe?????? What sense does that make? Stand on your own two feet and sound off like you have a pair. I think my point was a bit more subtle than that. I didn�t mean that I just believe what the majority around me believes, and switch beliefs like a chameleon. I meant that everyone (to different degrees) feels more / less confident about their beliefs, depending on who�s around. So that�s a factor I need to remember and �adjust for� when I�m thinking about how convinced I feel about different things. What I also mean is: although I believe Jesus really existed and died and rose again, I can�t help feeling the idea seems quite implausible, when I�m surrounded by total sceptics. I can�t help my feelings being affected by them. But then when I hear people say something about Jesus or heaven etc. with conviction, I think �Yes � this is what I believe in and I agree.� It feels like home, it has a warm ring of truth. It�s a bit like (dodgy analogy again) meeting somebody you find attractive, and then not seeing them for a long time, and gradually the feelings wear off, though you still remember them, but then you meet them again and the feelings come back. >>>> I have to remember there are very clever people on both sides. >>Another reason I feel justified in my doubts. I presume you mean doubts about believing anything? >>>> But the one which stood out for me most is the issue of hell. That seems to be the biggest stumbling block for most people in Britain at least, and it's what I find the hardest to understand. >>That completely depends on whether you believ in that or whether it is just the nurture of society that puts it into your head that it exists and at the same time defines that relegion is wrong. A bit of a contradiction but what I have seen. Pardon? Who? I meant that people who don't believe in hell or Christianity find the idea of hell repels them from Christianity. |
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| Midge | Posted: 30.06.2004, 13:02 | |
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>>>>they still seem to think some purposes are good and some aren't - e.g. why 'help the poor', rather than 'the survival of the fittest'? (or 'shoot the poor'?) >>Society requires rules. I want to live in a society wher I don't feel threatened.. So shoot the poor before they get you. >>>>And how do I decide which value system to choose? Why should I choose secular humanism rather than any other option? >>Again, two feet and having balls.... How does that help me decide between secular humanism and (say) fascism??? >>>>And another thing - it seems so hard to convince anyone else to follow Jesus that I find myself doubting it ever happens - and when people do become Christians (not through my efforts) it amazes me that they're really convinced by it and I hope they won't be disappointed when they get to know more! >>I'd like to see the % of "conversions" that drop the faith... Well, in terms of the individual people I was referring to, none of them so far (as far as I know). In fact, their faith got stronger and deeper. >>>>And do they lay into anyone else apart from you? >>"Lay into" is a rather hard way of putting it. Do you find me too confrontational?? I was talking about Andy's colleagues, not you. But yes, people do lay into others because they believe something 'stupid' 'offensive' or 'intolerant'(!) etc. >>>>Do they claim they "choose" not to believe it? >>Yes... OK then - do you believe in free will? How does it arise? >>>>it's all very well believing you should worship God this way or that way in this life, and people don't mind that (though if you're Glen Hoddle and you suggest that disabled people are paying for past sins, that can be a problem), as they can take it or leave it. But if you say, after we die we're all going to heaven or hell, and this is how God judges us... then people feel it's a bit more significant and personal. >>Why should one be better than the other? You don't know that disability is not a punishment for sin... That's not my point. My point is that people are happy for you to say "I worship God by smoking ganja", "I worship God by taking communion", but they don't like it when you say "We're all going to be judged by Jesus" (or "disabled people are paying for past sins", but that was an aside). >>>>So what does a purposeful life without God feel like? Is it based on anything, or is it just a feeling of conviction that presents itself, like a conviction that God is (not) there? Occasionally I think I can imagine that feeling, but then life comes up and confronts me with its purposelessness. >>It feels fake when I think god is there. It has a bias towards me but who has a life that doesn't. What purposelessness in life??? Do you not have goals, ambitions and aspirations??? I'll have to think about this more before I answer. |
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| Anonymous | Posted: 30.06.2004, 21:11 | |
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>>>>... the complete disunity between various 'fractions': baptist, methodist, anglican, etc... If Jesus is the "way the truth the light" why the misalignment?? That is yet /another/ reason for my belief that it is fucked up... They're just people. And people disagree all the time. And in church, they feel like they are much more allowed to disagree because they all have the right to decide how everything should be. It happens within denominations as well as between them. I work for a church and I feel like I have as many bosses as there are people in the congregation - or at least, I feel like they think that's the way it is. I believe that Jesus IS the way/truth/light and a whole load of other things as well. I didn't last year, but I do now. But I know from working with a lot of Christians that this gets blurred and it becomes that Joe's interpretation of Jesus is the way/etc rather than that it's Jesus. Is this making sense? I hope so... |
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