Feeling really lost about the absolute Truth

Chocoboko

Posted: 12.06.2004, 00:53

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Right now, I just feel so lost. I don't know how to please God. I don't what God is like. I don't even know if God is there. I just never understood why we have to go on faith. I feel that when we go on faith, we tend to create God in our imaginations. We project our personalities onto God. Some people will create an image of God in their head as someone ultimately loving. Others will create a self-righteous God in their head to justify their anger at those with differing beliefs and morals. I am just so tired of having rely on my imagination to see God. I want a real God--not a product of my own imagination.

I just feel so lost because everyones' opinions differ. I can't seem to get it straight whether homosexuality is right or wrong. Each person expresses their opinion about God and others might call it spiritual revelation--but all those opinions conflict. Thus, they can't be spiritual.

If there is God, I just don't know what He thinks of me. Why can't He talk to me? Why must I rely on my imagination(so called faith)? Another thing that bothers me is that people say we should rely on God's strength. I interpret that belief unhealthily in that if I fail, I beat myself up for not relying on God. Sometimes I have so many questions that I just can't handle anything anymore. A lot of times, I will dwell in scientific materialism. But I want to believe in something more. But when I start getting into spiritual things again, all these doubts plague my mind. My skepticism takes over. I am going in circles. I can't handle it anymore.

The only logical conclusion I can find right now is that all religion is merely created by the placebo effect. People only deceive themselves into thinking they are communication with a higher power by their imaginations. I am always looking to religion and God to fill this void inside of me. But perhaps this void is something only I, myself, can fill. In fact, I notice I am happier in my skeptical phase than in my religious phase.

I know I sometimes find the thought of no God or religion as gruesome. But I don't have to take it that way. As Sartre said, humans are condemned to be free--they have no absolute truth to guide them. Sometimes I think that we feel so lost because of our freedom that we need religion to guide us and give us a purpose. But a lot of atheists say that we must give our own life purpose and not rely on a religion to give it to us.

This is my own muddled mind. I just feel so lost. Maybe it's my depression. I don't know.

andy

Posted: 12.06.2004, 15:55

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Thanks for revealing some of your thoughts Chocboko. I totally understand having all these feelings, although it seems a bit harsh you're having all of them at the same time

I especially often wonder what God thinks of me. Very occasionally I get the feeling he really loves me, and the rest of the time I try to cling on to that feeling I had. The hard bit is that it's much easier to believe the stuff you feel at the dark times, and very hard to believe the stuff you feel at better times.

Sometimes I think that the way God has treated me makes me feel like he can't be made up - I'm sure a God I invented wouldn't be so awkward and difficult to "serve".

As for being lost because of my freedom, don't even get me started...

darkly

Posted: 13.06.2004, 23:54

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>>The only logical conclusion I can find right now is that all religion is merely created by the placebo effect. People only deceive themselves into thinking they are communication with a higher power by their imaginations.

This is exactly how I felt and still feel. I'm not sure if that is supportive or not but it is factual none the less.

D4rk|y

Midge

Posted: 16.06.2004, 21:25

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Whether I feel like God is there or not and whether I feel like life has a point or not depends a lot on my mood and my surroundings and the pressures on me. A lot of the time I feel like my life is meaningless and I can't see God there, but then today I was looking at the world and thinking if there was nothing but this world it'd just be too depressing for me, so I hope there is more. In theory I still believe in God and heaven but in practice I don't feel strong convction about it and find myself thinking "I hope I'm going to go to heaven after all this". Makes it hard if you feel like that's all that makes life purposeful and that it's essential to see others believe it but you don't feel you've got much conviction to talk to them about it. Anyway that's all for my next article(s).

But - when faced with birth death love tragedy beauty etc., my life seems to regain three dimensions colour and feeling, and my beliefs seem to take shape again.

Anonymous

Posted: 17.06.2004, 16:24

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Isn't it strange that life's like this... not obvious that there's a point, and not obvious that there's NOT a point... not obvious that there's a God, but sometimes suggestive that there is... Why is it like this? You'd have thought it would be obviously one or the other. I guess it is to lots of people... or maybe they're just close-minded?

darkly

Posted: 18.06.2004, 15:50

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I don't think I ever feel like life has no point - I have separated life from God. They are mutually exclusive as far as I am concerned...

D4rk|y

Anonymous

Posted: 18.06.2004, 19:12

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> They are mutually exclusive as far as I am concerned...

Why?

Midge

Posted: 20.06.2004, 17:44

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What - you mean if God exists, we don't have a life? Or do you mean that if God's there, He's totally disconnected from our life and might as well not be there? - Which is basically what I used to think before I really became a Christian - that on the face of it, God may or may not be there, and you either believe He is there a priori and use that to explain things in the world, or you believe He isn't there and explain the same things another way. I.e. it's just a 'leap of faith' without any evidence. But then things happened which convinced me that there was more to it than that, and that He was there. Trouble is, those things and convictions don't hang around forever to sustain you.

BTW I always feel much more confident about my beliefs when I'm with other people who agree with me, and when I'm worshipping God. Not that that makes it true of course, but it's something to remember when I'm surrounded by cynics like my mum and feel unsure about it all.

andy

Posted: 21.06.2004, 09:02

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I recently have had some hard conversations with people from uni (as mentioned in my article) and it's kind of bruised me. I feel a lot better after something like that when I talk to people who are both intelligent and Christians. I get very worried when my intelligent colleagues hold me basically in contempt for believing this stuff, but I have to remember there are very clever people on both sides.

davidb

Posted: 21.06.2004, 12:15

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Yes. Btw, are you part of a forum for Christians in your field? I've just joined a Christians in professional astronomy list, and feel pleased to find out I'm not alone. And Christians in Science are quite good - they have an interesting journal and some good conferences... my membership has petered out, I should renew it...

What do your colleagues object to? And what sort of answers do you give? I ask this not to suggest my own answers, I'm just interested in the debates other Christians have to deal with. Maybe that's for a different thread.

Sympathising about your bruises.

Warmest wishes,

DavidB

andy

Posted: 21.06.2004, 12:49

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All kinds of things e.g. it's clearly a myth - you can see how it built up, how can you believe in a God who puts people in hell, but the hardest one for me at the moment is just a kind of look of shock that you could believe something so clearly wrong...

Midge

Posted: 23.06.2004, 16:48

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Well, at least you can console yourself with the fact that they're not reacting to what you actually believe and how it appears to you, but what they think Christianity is about and how it appears to them. Not much of an encouragement, but still.

Just after reading your post, I read something someone'd pinned up in the computer room in response to a CU talk called "I wish I had your faith", where they said how they don't wish that, and how they used to think that even if it isn't true, at least religion has a positive effect on the world, but now they don't even think that. It was full of the usual wrong information and non-sequiturs (the Bible's been translated into lots of languages, so it can't be reliable; if you believe other religions are wrong, you can't be 'tolerant' etc.; the Bible describes God as 'a jealous God' and yet it describes jealousy as a sin...) But the one which stood out for me most is the issue of hell. That seems to be the biggest stumbling block for most people in Britain at least, and it's what I find the hardest to understand. It's not surprising people pick up on it, as it's basically the bottom line.

Anonymous

Posted: 23.06.2004, 16:52

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What do you mean, the bottom line?

Midge

Posted: 23.06.2004, 16:58

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>>I don't think I ever feel like life has no point - I have separated life from God.

So where does your life get its purpose from? I tried to ask people on a secular humanist website that, but they ignored me. The best their site could give me was "The meaning of life is to live a life of meaning." And then they criticised Christians for having a circular argument! The only time they posted comments from Christians was when they were of the "Evolution is disproved, stupid!" or "Repent, stupid!" variety. Sorry, I'm drifting off the point.

So what does a purposeful life without God feel like? Is it based on anything, or is it just a feeling of conviction that presents itself, like a conviction that God is (not) there? Occasionally I think I can imagine that feeling, but then life comes up and confronts me with its purposelessness.

Midge

Posted: 23.06.2004, 17:06

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>>I feel that when we go on faith, we tend to create God in our imaginations. We project our personalities onto God. Some people will create an image of God in their head as someone ultimately loving. Others will create a self-righteous God in their head to justify their anger at those with differing beliefs and morals. I am just so tired of having rely on my imagination to see God. I want a real God--not a product of my own imagination.

I know what you mean. That's how I feel in my more agnostic/nihilistic moments. If I was just left to my own devices, I probably would end up creating a God in my own image. But I think and hope that having other Christians to interact with, and with God working in me and caring for me even if I can't feel it, that He'll help me at least get closer to understanding how He really is.

Midge

Posted: 23.06.2004, 17:18

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And another thing - it seems so hard to convince anyone else to follow Jesus that I find myself doubting it ever happens - and when people do become Christians (not through my efforts) it amazes me that they're really convinced by it and I hope they won't be disappointed when they get to know more!

Midge

Posted: 23.06.2004, 17:22

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>>What do you mean, the bottom line?

Oh dear, I knew I'd have to explain that. I mean, it's all very well believing you should worship God this way or that way in this life, and people don't mind that (though if you're Glen Hoddle and you suggest that disabled people are paying for past sins, that can be a problem), as they can take it or leave it. But if you say, after we die we're all going to heaven or hell, and this is how God judges us... then people feel it's a bit more significant and personal.

andy

Posted: 25.06.2004, 13:19

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Yeah my friends we offended that I "choose" to believe that.

I don't think I do choose to believe it, and I find it very difficult to understand why God would do that, but hey.

Midge

Posted: 25.06.2004, 18:24

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Do they claim they "choose" not to believe it? Do they really say anything about how they come to believe what they do? ("You were just brought up that way..." etc. - can they escape from determinism blah blah)

And do they lay into anyone else apart from you? Presumably there aren't any Hindus or Muslims for them to attack - or are they just afraid to criticize them? A friend of mine was the only Christian in his lab, but then an Indian ex-Hindu Christian joined them, and when they found that out, they were really curious and wanted to hear all about his faith. But when the English Christian starting joining in, they said "We don't want to hear from you - this is different!" People eh?

Chocoboko

Posted: 27.06.2004, 23:15

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>>>>I don't think I ever feel like life has no point - I have separated life from God.

>>

>>So where does your life get its purpose from? I tried to ask people on a secular humanist website that, but they ignored me. The best their site could give me was "The meaning of life is to live a life of meaning." And then they criticised Christians for having a circular argument! The only time they posted comments from Christians was when they were of the "Evolution is disproved, stupid!" or "Repent, stupid!" variety. Sorry, I'm drifting off the point.

>>

>>So what does a purposeful life without God feel like? Is it based on anything, or is it just a feeling of conviction that presents itself, like a conviction that God is (not) there? Occasionally I think I can imagine that feeling, but then life comes up and confronts me with its purposelessness.

Basically, most atheists believe that whatever meaning life has is what you GIVE to it. They believe you must give your own life meaning. You must choose your own purpose in life (such as to help the poor, make a new invention, etc.)

darkly

Posted: 28.06.2004, 00:50

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Guys, sorry, I'm not avoiding the conversation - I have been on holiday.

I will reply in detail sometime this week - work load permitting...

D4rk|y

Midge

Posted: 29.06.2004, 00:35

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>>Basically, most atheists believe that whatever meaning life has is what you GIVE to it. They believe you must give your own life meaning. You must choose your own purpose in life (such as to help the poor, make a new invention, etc.)

Well, yes... but

(a) they still seem to think some purposes are good and some aren't - e.g. why 'help the poor', rather than 'the survival of the fittest'? (or 'shoot the poor'?)

(b) the idea of creating your own purpose and meaning doesn't satisfy some people's hunger for it.

I have friends and family who feel like their life has no real purpose, and they don't like that feeling - they are hungry for a sense of real purpose instead of just working to eat, eating to live, and living to work, till they die. They could try to create purpose by adopting the values of secular humanism or Christianity or fascism. This would give them a basis on which to make decisions and act, but how can they deal with the nagging thought that this is only an arbitrary created purpose (whether from an invented God or from an invented humanism) and that their hunger for real purpose remains unsatisfied? In practice, I find they just can't believe in something they think is invented. And our instincts (e.g. selfishness) seem more real than invented values and threaten to override them when it comes to choosing how to act.

And how do I decide which value system to choose? Why should I choose secular humanism rather than any other option? Is there any reason to choose these particular values beyond "It feels right to me"?

darkly

Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:33

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>>...I have friends and family who feel like their life has no real purpose, and they don't like that feeling - they are hungry for a sense of real purpose instead of just working to eat, eating to live, and living to work, till they die.

Why live to work when you can work to live. It is easy to decide what you feel like you are missing out on. and then do it. Work to fulfil you appetite for life. I have already started planning/saving to retire at 55...

>>In practice, I find they just can't believe in something they think is invented.

So believe in what you can feel, touch and see.

>>And our instincts (e.g. selfishness) seem more real than invented values and threaten to override them when it comes to choosing how to act.

Not necessarily. But aye, why should real values not override invented ones?

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:41

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>>I don't think I ever feel like life has no point - I have separated life from God. They are mutually exclusive as far as I am concerned...

Actually I think that what i meant was that the phrase "life without God" is not a Contradiction.

Contradiction is a synonym of 'mutually exclusive.' I made a mistake... My bad.

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 29.06.2004, 01:42

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>>What - you mean if God exists, we don't have a life?

I don't think god exists...

D4rk|y