ARRGH Church

andy

Posted: 10.12.2003, 09:15

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But everyone I know's got a silver grey one.

darkly

Posted: 10.12.2003, 20:58

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I think I may need to be introduced to some of your friends....

D4rk|y

andy

Posted: 11.12.2003, 08:39

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erm they do exist.

I have lots of friends.

Posted: 23.12.2003, 20:27

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>>I also swore I'd never become one of those people who are so busy doing "Christian" things that they have no life and are exhausted all the time. I don't think God wants that for anyone.

I might be too late with this but I'm writing it anyway. (See my work avoidance tactics?!)

Fully support that thought - but won't rant about it here! Don't forget it though.

>>I'd have to give out communion stuff which for some reason scares me a lot. But that isn't a good reason.

I do that now. I'm apparently licensed (Anglican church) although I didn't have to do/learn/sign anything to achieve that! Have handed out bread once and wine once. And I know it's different in the Baptist church (which I think you're still in cos I think they have deacons but for someone who works in a church I have shocking lack of knowledge of the formal stuff) but it scares me silly. Although the second time I spent a great deal of it trying (and not succeeding) not to laugh. I mean, I get freaked enough about walking up in front of everyone to take communion. And now here I am having to hand it out - and it kind of feels like the people who do that should be very holy...

But anyway, if I had to choose a deacon you'd be one of my choices.

davidb

Posted: 31.08.2004, 11:48

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Thought I'd resurrect this thread rather than starting a new one, since I've got a perennial question, which I've probably asked before:

What do you do / how do you feel when you really really want something to change at church?

For instance, the range of things that are preached about. Or the terrible drum machine accompanying the music.

What do you do? Do you confront the leaders? Would you write a letter? Would you, personally, leave the church? I'm not so much asking for advice (although that would be interesting) - I just think it's good for us to discuss together the range of ways in which we can be agents for change (or protest!)

Midge

Posted: 31.08.2004, 16:35

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Well, did you talk to anyone again about the music or talk to the pastor about his ideas? If not, I'd say - do it! It's the last thing I'd do tho. Thankfully I haven't felt that way recently. All I can suggest to overcome cautiousness is, have a couple of beers and then send them an email. But seriously, the church ought to be a place for open and honest expression of thoughts and feelings, but it often doesn't seem that way.

Do you know any examples of anyone else dealing with these problems? All I can think of is a friend of mine who left my church recently because he felt people looked down on him as he wasn't a nice traditional middle-class person, and he always felt not accepted by various people including the leaders. I can't help thinking this was mainly in his head tho. But the point is, he decided to just leave eventually. A similar thing happened to a friend in my home church - some sort of disagreement and he left.

Some churches are so big and monolithic, it seems hopeless to try and change them. And if the majority really like things that way, and it's not sinful, why should it change just for me? But surely in smaller churches, people should feel able to be listened to.

Whatever size the church is, I think there can't be anything wrong with writing to the leaders. They might not realise how you and others feel, that there's a problem for some people. It gets it off your chest, so you don't feel so powerless. They ought to be mature enough to accept feedback. And if they're not, it's better to know that and have the option of leaving. Or you can write to churches that you've already left - I've been tempted to write to a particular church that I don't even attend regularly, telling them what other people think of them, how they've made my friends feel...

Sorry if that's not helpful or constructive at all...

andy

Posted: 01.09.2004, 08:43

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One thing that didn't work for me: try to provide a constructive solution.

I wrote a little paper for my church's leadership about how they should have a web site, what it could be used for, how it would work, and how I could help them for greatly reduced money.

As far as I know some people liked the idea and some didn't, so nothing has happened, and someone who wants to find a church in our town and looks on Google finds nothing to suggest our church is even open.

They haven't even asked me to come and talk to them or anything.

It's a good thing I didn't have much emotional investment in the whole thing or I'd be gutted pretty annoyed by now.

Anyway, my point was that by providing a real alternative you might provide an easy way to implement change rather than just feeling criticised.

Posted: 01.09.2004, 11:44

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As someone who works for a church I'd love to say telling someone (in any form) about concerns or needs for change or anything else really is really constructive.

But in reality, it seems that what those in charge make the decisions and everyone else's opinion doesn't really come into it.

Unless you try REALLY hard and then just do something whether people like it or not - we are getting a data projector this week. It was on the agenda at the PCC when I started working for the church in January 2003 and I think it might have been there a while then. And it's only gone through cos someone on the PCC pushed it very hard.

Speaking as a church youth worker, I'd LOVE people to tell me about ideas they had and things they think we could do - I hate it when people think they are doing that but actually what they're doing is bitching behind my back. It's also hard when you're on your own trying to come up with stuff week in week out and the only feedback you get is very negative criticism.

I'd also like people to accept that just cos they think something is a good idea, it doesn't mean it's instantly possible or the right thing for the church. As long as that happens, then communication is good.

That's what I think anyway.

Midge

Posted: 01.09.2004, 14:46

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What actually happens in church members' meetings? I imagine they're supposed to be a democratic forum where people can propose things and they're voted on. If so, do these ideas just end up being kicked into the grass? I haven't been to a church meeting for about 15 years, so I'm not sure what they're like in general, but in the church I grew up in, new ideas mostly seemed to get tied up in bureaucracy, or if you offered to do something, the leaders always felt they had to be responsible and were too busy to do it. Still, some things do change in churches, so it must happen sometimes...

darkly

Posted: 02.09.2004, 23:49

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>>Well, did you talk to anyone again about the music or talk to the pastor about his ideas? If not, I'd say - do it! It's the last thing I'd do tho.

Exactly what I was going to say minus the "It's the last thing..." . Why? If you have a problem speak you mind - else you have no justification for having the problem.

>>it seems hopeless to try and change them.

Apathy is worst of all...

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 02.09.2004, 23:52

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>> someone who wants to find a church in our town and looks on Google finds nothing to suggest our church is even open.

Mate - MAybe there was a Church for me in Hull - but I couldn't find it - the first ones I tried had web pages. Really, really helpful. Esp. if you want a 10:30 or later morning service....

>>They haven't even asked me to come and talk to them or anything.

Maybe you sould offer again - maybe have a prototype to show...

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 02.09.2004, 23:54

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>>But in reality, it seems that what those in charge make the decisions and everyone else's opinion doesn't really come into it.

That's wrong - the Church is the people and although they need guidance the ppl FACILITATING the decisions should not make all the decisions... Maybe they should be reminded of this...

D4rk|y

andy

Posted: 03.09.2004, 08:50

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>>Mate - MAybe there was a Church for me in Hull - but I couldn't find it - the first ones I tried had web pages. Really,

Totally agree.

>>Maybe you sould offer again - maybe have a prototype to show...

After I wrote my above message I emailed the minister offering to come in and answer questions for the leadership. I got this reply:

# Thanks for this. It might be helpful. I think that the website will

# happen, but it depends on whether or not someone is available to update it.

# I think there is a mixed reaction as to whether or not it would be a

# worthwhile use of resources. We're also looking at the 'Find a Church'

# website, and having a page on that.

The point is that the system I've designed means the secretary and others can update it without any special expertise.

That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.

Posted: 03.09.2004, 22:49

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>>>>But in reality, it seems that what those in charge make the decisions and everyone else's opinion doesn't really come into it.

>>

>>That's wrong - the Church is the people and although they need guidance the ppl FACILITATING the decisions should not make all the decisions... Maybe they should be reminded of this...

I agree a lot.

But I'm the youth worker and as such, don't seem to count as an adult! They seem to forget I'm nearly 30.

Posted: 03.09.2004, 22:50

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>>The point is that the system I've designed means the secretary and others can update it without any special expertise.

>>

>>That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.

That sucks.

Midge

Posted: 04.09.2004, 16:54

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Thinking of my experience at complaining to the college computer officers / maintenance / cleaners / etc. and trying to get them to do what one assumes they're supposed to (tho it's never set out clearly and it's always someone else's problem) you have to be persistent in coming back to them when they give these brush-offs and non-understanding replies, but when it comes down to it, nothing ever seems to happen unless you go to them in person and say "Did you get my message? What's going to happen about it?" and stand your ground.

College, uni, Social Services and other things seem to run on the basis of getting by with maintaining the status quo, and only acting when absolutely necessary. A good way to do that is to ignore any emails or letters, or even to make them vanish. When pressed, postpone action. But if you're standing in their office saying "Look - this is the problem and I want an answer" they have to deal with you. (To be honest, that's how I often cope with emails too.)

(Social Services actually manage to combine this with generating lots of unnecessary bureaucratic work to do. They wrote to me to say they'd be phoning me this Tues or Weds so I should expect a call. Then when they tried to do that on Tues they discovered they didn't have my phone number any more for some reason, so they wrote me a letter which arrived today, telling me they couldn't phone me on Tues or Weds.)

Here are some example tactics:

"Yes - that font's been installed for the last few years - you just can't see it."

"Oh - we didn't realise that graduates would be using the network over the summer. We'll copy all your old files on top of the new ones."

"Oh no - we can't unblock their sewer - that's the builders' responsibility - we'll just forget about the message."

"But if we have an overhead projector my daughter won't be able to read it as her eye-sight isn't good and no one ever thinks about people like her."

"But I don't think we should be enthusiastic as Christians."

"But didn't candles only come in with the Oxford movement?"

So - pin your leaders/fellow servants down and make them listen to you!

PS I'm reading "Catch 22" at the moment. It all seems very familiar...

darkly

Posted: 04.09.2004, 18:07

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>>That was the point of the proposal I gave to them.

Nice one

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 04.09.2004, 18:08

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>>But I'm the youth worker and as such, don't seem to count as an adult! They seem to forget I'm nearly 30.

Bieing a youth worker has nothing to do with it - you are an equal in the Church. Maybe they should be reminded of that as well.

D4rk|y

darkly

Posted: 04.09.2004, 18:12

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>>"But if we have an overhead projector my daughter won't be able to read it as her eye-sight isn't good and no one ever thinks about people like her."

You can still have paper copies available - everywhere else does and yes - we do think about everyone.

>>So - pin your leaders/fellow servants down and make them listen to you!

Word, brother!

D4rk|y

Midge

Posted: 05.09.2004, 20:46

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>>You can still have paper copies available

That's the obvious answer, if you can get a word in edgeways...

Oh, and another one - there was a meeting of several churches (different denominations, despite the "complete disunity" between us

) to plan a Christmas event, and us 'young people' seemed to be giving the most ideas, and then one person turns round later and says "Let's have a contribution from the young people for a change, instead of them always just complaining about things."

On a tangent but kind of under the same heading - it's kind of offputting when people sit a few rows in front of you in church wearing very skimpy tops, particularly when the tops are completely concealed by the back rest of the chair, making them look topless... Created an interesting impression anyway. Even worse, aparently there was a speaker at a conference (not a Christian conference!) who decided to wear basically a bikini, and she was quite short, so it was completely hidden by the lecturn and you couldn't see any clothes.

davidb

Posted: 06.09.2004, 12:35

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I was going to write here some serious issues I'm struggling with about church, but I've decided against it until I can formulate it more clearly - I'll say more as things develop at my church over the next few months. I'll just say, please pray for me. The broad area of concern is what we believe as a local church.

Something I can ask you about (which is not in the public domain, but less important): I've been asked if I'd be willing to join the leadership of my church as an elder. Don't know what to think. On the one hand, I'd love to be involved in eg the teaching programme for the church, and looking after people. On the other hand, I'm worried that (a la my first paragraph) there might be serious controversies I'd have to deal with. But then, I might have to deal with those anyway...

Midge

Posted: 07.09.2004, 15:50

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Uh oh - sounds ominous. If I was simplistic I'd say "Why can't you just say all that to the people who are asking you to become an elder." But I expect that'd be difficult.

andy

Posted: 07.09.2004, 16:35

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I thoroughly sympathise with this predicament. The only advice I'd give you is really just something else to balance, rather than being any help at all:

Is there any way you can try to move the debate away from abstract theology? We seem always to be arguing about what we believe, when really what seems important is what comes out of those beliefs in our actions. Obviously the line between abstract and practical theology is very blurred, but can you move the debate (if only in your own mind...?) towards the practical end? Then it might become clearer what the right response is.

This is, of course, coming from my own biased position of wanting to cut down theological debate and replace it with trying to show kindness etc. It just seems like debates on abstract things are often very destructive with no useful outcome.

Does that mean we shouldn't hold beliefs or stand up for them? Actually, I don't know what it means and it's just a feeling, so ignore me.

Sorry

Midge

Posted: 07.09.2004, 20:00

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I agree that practice is what really matters, and I know that Calvinists and Arminians, Pre-/Post-/Amillenialists, Young and Old Earthers can agree and be united in preaching the gospel and serving others in the world, and these differences appear irrelevant. And some Christians aren't even aware that these differences exist, or are aware, but don't feel the need to choose a position.

I suppose the problem is when some people think the church should take a certain position on such issues and express it overtly and explicitly. Can we convince them to change their minds? Should we? Which issues are important enough to define the church by?

andy

Posted: 08.09.2004, 08:56

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>>I suppose the problem is when some people think the church should

>>take a certain position on such issues and express it overtly and explicitly.

>>Can we convince them to change their minds?

No.

>>Should we?

Certainly not in every case.

>> Which issues are important enough to define the church by?

Exactly. I am stuck between _being_ a modern man (as opposed to postmodern) and _wanting to be_ more flexible. In principle I want very little to matter to me but in practice almost everything does.