ARRGH Church

davidb

Posted: 08.09.2004, 16:50

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

> If I was simplistic I'd say "Why can't you just say all that to the people who are asking you to become an elder." But I expect that'd be difficult.

It will be difficult, but yes, I'm in the process of telling the leadership my feelings in detail.

> Is there any way you can try to move the debate away from abstract theology? We seem always to be arguing about what we believe, when really what seems important is what comes out of those beliefs in our actions.

Thanks for this advice, I'll think about it. One thing I'm struggling with is that although *I* may not want to argue about beliefs (although I sometimes will), *other* people in the congregation certainly will in some circumstances. What do you do then?

> Exactly. I am stuck between _being_ a modern man (as opposed to postmodern) and _wanting to be_ more flexible. In principle I want very little to matter to me but in practice almost everything does.

Hear hear!

Midge

Posted: 20.09.2004, 18:54

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>Thanks for this advice, I'll think about it. One thing I'm struggling with is that although *I* may not want to argue about beliefs (although I sometimes will), *other* people in the congregation certainly will in some circumstances. What do you do then?

I suppose the answer to that is - you need a meta-discussion. You won't be able to agree what the church should choose to highlight, unless you agree what the church is for, and why it should highlight any particular beliefs or practices, and what it means to be part of the church, as an elder or not.

andy

Posted: 21.09.2004, 02:16

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

But everyone will disagree about this meta-topic.

I was thinking tonight about how alien I feel people are who disagree with me about predestination. I feel like they worship a God as different from the one I worship as Muslims or Jews. But they're everywhere in the church, and I'm supposed to work together with them as if we had common goals!

Maybe more on this in an article sometime.

Or how about a BibleExperiment on Romans 9?

davidb

Posted: 21.09.2004, 11:35

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

As you know, I'm one of those aliens, and we get on alright

I think there really can be widely different understandings of God if you compare the extreme ends on this issue. But there are many people who, if you probe, have some sort of internal compromise going on.

The surprise to me is that I *do* seem to have common goals with people who believe very differently on this. Most Calvinists and Arminians are wanting to prioritise worshipping God, living for him more and more, and evangelism. It's a curiosity to me that different understandings of predestination don't impact our behaviour more. Obviously both 'theories' generate similar behaviour - I think this is because of other components in the 'theories' which are the same - eg judgment, Jesus' atoning death, sin, hell, heaven etc.

andy

Posted: 21.09.2004, 14:53

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

>>As you know, I'm one of those aliens, and we get on alright

I agree it is surprising how much you can have in common with someone who disagrees with you on something incredibly important.

Having met you and seen you in action you clearly don't extrapolate predestination to the conclusions I feel forced into by it.

One day I'll gather my thoughts on this and write about it, but it's very sensitive for me so I'll have to be careful.

Midge

Posted: 21.09.2004, 22:33

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>> But everyone will disagree about this meta-topic.

But it's always better to realise that, than assume you agree on those issues and try to understand each other on things that follow on from them. As we've seen in previous discussions...

>>I think this is because of other components in the 'theories' which are the same

Maybe also because neither 'theory' can be put into practice and lived out consistently in its extreme/pure form.

andy

Posted: 22.09.2004, 14:17

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

>>But it's always better to realise that, than assume you agree on those issues and try to understand each other on things that follow on from them. As we've seen in previous discussions...

Maybe it's better not to talk about things at all, like the Quakers.

Midge

Posted: 22.09.2004, 21:49

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>Maybe it's better not to talk about things at all

But only if you get together with other people who agree with you on that...

andy

Posted: 24.09.2004, 08:51

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

Maybe not. Maybe it's better to keep your mouth shut even if other people are talking.

Just a thought, and not a very well though out one, either.

Wave

Posted: 25.09.2004, 16:00

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

Whike my internet connection stays online I thought I would read as much GE as possible and this thread is great.

Andy did you ever become a deacon?

Back to David B's question

As for ways of doing stuff at church, the way I've always tended to do things is find out who is in control of a particular thing and find their opinions etc but find how I can help do the stuff and generally I've got some compromise on what I hoped for.

I will say that I have generally lost a lot of time and invariably money in getting to that compromise but I think it's worth it.

oooh last one is the can't be arsed factor. Some things you can just change and most of the time people can't be be arsed to undo it if it's small enough or works better than the last thing.

I know this method won't work in some churches but I don't go to them!

Midge

Posted: 25.09.2004, 18:28

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>oooh last one is the can't be arsed factor.

A related phenomenon is where people stick with the status quo because of inertia rather than cos they want to resist change. They're quite happy for someone to come along and improve things, as long as they don't have to do it themselves.

andy

Posted: 25.09.2004, 20:39

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

>>Andy did you ever become a deacon?

No, got rejected.

Turns out to be a good thing as I haven't got enough time anyway.

Wave

Posted: 16.10.2004, 22:12

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

Went to church

They had communion

I felt like it was just a conveyor belt of meaningless sipping and wafer eating so I didn't go.

A little later felt ashamed that I thought they didn't reach my targets of accepted holyness.

Can anyone tell me which side of me is right ?

andy

Posted: 18.10.2004, 10:41

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

lol.

Neither!

It's up to you whether you feel comfortable taking communion with people.

Personally, I think communion is the most fantastic way to express and experience our one-ness, and so a great thing to do when you're joining a church, so I'd encourage you to try it and see.

Wave

Posted: 18.10.2004, 19:56

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

I am not joking when I say I was stunned when I went in the evening. It was a different church. The people were not doing anything different except there was a sincere looking for God in the place. Everything was more relaxed and I was not going for anything other than to prove that this was not the church for me! I was greatly surprised to find I enjoyed the sermon to the point that I wished it to continue and the worship I actually enjoyed despite myself!!

I shall now stay at this church having met several normal people and will tell you of any house group issues.

I might add that there was a guy who was very good at welcoming really did make a huge difference. He invited me to church in the evening and if it was not for him I probably wouldn't have gone to this church.

~

Midge

Posted: 18.10.2004, 21:50

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

Great - nice to hear some cheerful news!

> I felt like it was just a conveyor belt of meaningless sipping and wafer eating

I often struggle to rouse my feelings beyond communion being like a conveyor belt - trying to feel it's meaningful and makes me 'feel blessed'. But I try to remember that Jesus has invited me to take the bread and wine, and it's not my job to feel anything - I just have to accept His invitation humbly, and if He wants to, He'll give me good feelings. And even if I don't feel anything special, it's still a sign that everyone who shares the bread and wine is really linked together in a body like Andy says (hence the name 'communion' = fellowship), and I always feel that unity when we say the grace afterwards - I think it's amazing that when we say "be with us all, for evermore", it really means for ever, not just while we're still around on earth or in this particular church.

andy

Posted: 19.10.2004, 08:05

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

Brilliant to hear this ~.

Midge I know what you mean.

Giving up tea and coffee could be a good psychological trick to wrest back control of your life from the confusion...

Wave

Posted: 27.10.2004, 23:24

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

Slightly off the topic but I thought I'd mention it anyway. (the link is cheerful news if your interested). Today I had a dead line and I took a break and went outside for a bit of fresh air and a pray and while I was outside this tree decided to start losing its leaves and I stood in a sort of shower of leaves. It was fantastic, for some strange reason I really felt like God new I would really enjoy that and let it happen just for me, this made me feel very special.

It's the little things in life.

Midge

Posted: 28.10.2004, 17:08

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

Very Couplandish! Like sudden rainbows, street lights that turn off as you walk under them, ducks crossing the road, or a bottle of Aqua Libra sitting in a phone box.

Anonymous

Posted: 30.10.2004, 11:03

Unregistered User

This is m.

I forgot to sign in again and am about to go on holiday so I'm typing this quickly seeing as I haven't actually packed yet...

Cool Wave about church!

I find giving out communion really makes the whole thing seem like a conveyor belt. After you've said "the blood of Jesus keep you in eternal life" a dozen times you feel like you're talking rubbish.

andy

Posted: 01.11.2004, 19:18

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

I don't like saying things when I take communion or pass things on - it makes it feel fake. However, I can see the point, and I have been involved in very moving communion services where we did that. It's much more about the attitude and the people than the actions I think.

Wave

Posted: 01.11.2004, 21:38

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

looked up couplandish and it's not in my dictionary - what does it mean?

Communion - I think I might have more of an insight into why I didn't like the communion at church.

I want to share my faith and I want to express my faith but both aspects are not fulfilled by people queing up for their bit of wafer and modest sip of wine whist not talking in what feels like a horrifically fake moment of humbleness established by an even more horrific silence where you can look no-one in the eye.

Everything feels false and tense. For me the ritual has become more important than what is being done and so I dislike it.

I would much rather have something far more irreverent with more joy or passion or just belief than the way it is done.

sorry this became a small rant

Midge

Posted: 02.11.2004, 14:14

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>looked up couplandish and it's not in my dictionary - what does it mean?

As in Douglas Coupland's books and how he portrays life, and the small things in it - click on [Search] and type in Coupland to see all our mentions of him.

Wave

Posted: 02.11.2004, 23:12

registered:

Posts: 51

Status: offline
last visit: 10.05.05

thanks

Can't believe I have never read that thread about what everyone is reading.

Since starting the course I have read very little mainly because of lots of socialising which will soon phase out as everyone gets to know one another.

I also didn't know there was a search button on this web site. Andy you are amazing.

andy

Posted: 11.11.2004, 08:43

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

>>I also didn't know there was a search button on this web site. Andy you are amazing.

Nothing to do with me - I just installed the system.

I really should upgrade it, but it's tricky...