ARRGH Church

davidb

Posted: 22.08.2003, 15:20

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

Hi, thought I'd set up a new topic. The title says it all. What makes you tear your hair out about church?

I HATE lovelessness. I hate leaders treating you like dirt; when they have no time for you, when they treat your current beliefs with puzzlement and scorn; when they don't bother to try to understand what you're saying; when they dismiss you.

I HATE simplistic dogmatism. I hate it when I'm told that a part of the Bible only means one thing, even though it screams out that it means something else. I hate it when people say that God does or doesn't do something, when again I can think of half a dozen examples in the Bible where he does seem to act that way. I hate it when I'm encouraged to pass on a trite interpretation, rather than getting people to think.

This is going to be an unreasonable, angry, and unnecessarily negative topic. Please post in this spirit.

davidb

Posted: 22.08.2003, 15:27

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

My current church isn't as bad as my last one on these things, but I still get angry.

I hate it when people tell me how to do my job better, when I feel that they haven't thought about how I already do it. I had an hour lecture the other night on how to be a better Sunday School leader - the advice included: getting the kids to do something different every 10 minutes, rather than give them a boring lecture; include games and activities, as well as a Bible slot; preparing throughout the week, rather than just doing the prep on a Saturday night. I felt like shouting, "Of course! Do you seriously think I haven't been doing these things? Have you any idea how much heartache and effort I go through for these kids?" But I didn't.

andy

Posted: 22.08.2003, 16:20

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

The same people always doing the same things because they're too lazy or untrusting or self-righteous to ask other people to do anything.

Everything I started this site for: no trust, no openness, no honesty, no emotion. A huge vat of nothingness.

I am attempting to be empty and pointless, but please forgive me if I said anything meaningful.

Midge

Posted: 23.08.2003, 00:10

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>But I didn't.

Why not? Did you write them a nice tempered letter later on instead?

>>I'm told that a part of the Bible only means one thing

Haven't you already said this on the sermons page?

BTW You might be interested to know (after your comments on the wiki study of Revelation) that said church has recently had a sermon on that very passage - see www. [you know who] .org/sermons/revelation_2_1-7.html

"It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.

I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...

And I still find it so hard

To say what I need to say

But I�m quite sure that you�ll tell me

Just how I should feel today

Oops - sorry - slipped into New Order mode there.

..but I suppose I've never experienced it. What really aggravates me about church is the one I grew up in, which I mentioned on the sermons page, where the adults carried on with the traditions they'd inherited (like praying and singing) but just kept saying they were unsure if there was any reason to believe anything was true - so we grew up thinking "What's the point?" and either became anti-Christians or Christians who took the Bible and the supernatural and everything more seriously. And also the kind of services we had at school which I wrote to the headmaster to complain about, that every year people were put off Christianity by these turgid archaic songs and prayers about "Grant that we being regenerate" and stuff. No wonder people think Christians are nutters.

That reminds me - I didn't get round to mentioning on Wednesday that it was St Stephen's Day - the day when there are big fireworks displays and they parade the Holy Right Hand of St Stephen round the streets of Budapest. Apparently this year is the first year that the parading of the Holy Right Hand is part of the official (state) celebrations. Check it out here:

http://magazin.ujember.katolikus.hu/archivum/0001/14.html

In its golden case (put a coin in the slot and it lights up):

http://www.communio.hu/luxchristi/szentjobbrov7.html

Doing the rounds in a provincial town (on the millennium tour to celebrate the 1000th anniversary of St Stephen's coronation):

http://www.balatonalmadi.info.hu/hun/p_jobb.html

Midge

Posted: 24.08.2003, 17:18

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

OK - I'd resolved to avoid negativity and to go back to some of the classic discussions from a year ago and try and think more about them, in a constructive way, but since you ask:

Another thing that really frustrates me about the church I grew up in is the Sunday school. It was OK I suppose till 'seniors' (secondary school level). Then it was just painful. There was only a handful of people, mostly girls, and mostly sent there by their parents who thought it was 'good for them', but didn't go to church themselves. When we sang choruses, my dad played a portable keyboard and most people were too self-conscious and embarrassed to sing at all. What we did in the group was based on a magazine called 'Partners in Learning', but I just remember it being either very dry or cringeworthy.

Once it was talking about the prophets of the Bible, and it quoted someone who said "The prophets didn't so much foretell as tell forth" - i.e. basically, prophecy isn't about predicting the future as some people think, they were just spokespeople for God, addressing social injustice etc. etc.

One 'lesson' was about praising God in our own language - trying to think of what we'd say as an equivalent to 'hosanna' and 'hallelujah' (as in Palm Sunday). The leader (our parents' age) said how when she was young they'd say 'groovy' and 'swinging hepcats', and we were supposed to think of modern day equivalents (e.g. "Jesus is wicked" or "rad" I suppose). But the idea that you'd say anything like that was just too ridiculous for any of us 'young people' to take seriously - and most of them didn't feel anything like that towards God anyway.

The most embarrassing lesson I remember was when it tried to be 'relevant' by getting us to perform a rap. It went "Questions are what this rap's about. What, when, why? Where, when, who?" (Of course, it had to be about questions, not answers.) And we had to get up in front of the whole church and 'perform' it.

It's no wonder some of the girls tried to bunk off Sunday school and hang around outside cos they were too embarrassed to come in. We could've done with some advice from DavidB. The only time people got into it was if we discussed the environment and stuff. It really frustrates me how we got fed some unappealing trying-to-be-trendy-and-relevant liberal stuff that didn't seem to have any point for any of us.

PS Apparently 'Partners in Learning' is now replaced by a magazine called 'Roots'...

Midge

Posted: 24.08.2003, 17:42

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

Another thing - again not so much about the church I'm in now - and not a very original thing to say either, but, another thing that really saddens me is the lack of trust, even the dislike and hatred, towards other denominations, even those with similar beliefs. In Britain a fair number of evangelicals and more traditional Catholics have realised that we have a lot in common compared to strong liberals - tho there's obviously a lot of room for more understanding. But there's a lot of fear of charismatics among some "non-charismatic" evangelicals, for example, and similar feelings the other way.

In some countries it's much worse - Baptists are seen as a dodgy minority by larger protestant denominations for example, let alone Catholics, and student groups set a rare example of unity to the other Christians. If you go to some countries though, where you've got Lutherans, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists and animists, it makes it easier to see what a lot Christians have in common.

andy

Posted: 26.08.2003, 08:42

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

Don't even get me started about Sunday School

davidb

Posted: 26.08.2003, 12:09

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

> Why not? Did you write them a nice tempered letter later on instead?

No, sometimes I think it's best to just grit your teeth and get on with the job. Some people just aren't aware of the damage they do, and I don't know how to tell them.

> "It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.

Not half.

> I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...

I don't think my church was full of *bad* people. But there were way too many loveless, indoctrinated and indoctrinating ones. It's probably a good church in many ways, but it's given me scars which are still hurting and affecting how I relate to God. This is probably partly my fault, but surely I can't accept all the blame.

> It's no wonder some of the girls tried to bunk off Sunday school and hang around outside cos they were too embarrassed to come in. We could've done with some advice from DavidB.

?? Que?

> another thing that really saddens me is the lack of trust, even the dislike and hatred, towards other denominations, even those with similar beliefs.

Yes, this is shocking. One of the things that truly astounded me about my old church was how they wouldn't join with other evangelicals in a city mission. At what price purity?

Midge

Posted: 26.08.2003, 22:44

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>No, sometimes I think it's best to just grit your teeth and get on with the job. Some people just aren't aware of the damage they do, and I don't know how to tell them.

Mmm, conflict resolution (and reconciliation and peace-making) is a very rare gift.

>>> "It is so easy for doctrinal precision to engender a lack of love" they say.

>>Not half.

I find it hard to believe they actually managed to say that...

>>> I still find it hard to believe they can really be that bad...

>>I don't think my church was full of *bad* people. But there were way too many loveless, indoctrinated and indoctrinating ones.

Yes, of course, I didn't mean they were morally bad - just that they were bad at being gracious and loving family members.

>>?? Que?

Sorry to confuse you, I didn't mean you were good with embarrassed girls - I meant you were good at making Sunday school enjoyable and not embarrassing.

>>Yes, this is shocking. One of the things that truly astounded me about my old church was how they wouldn't join with other evangelicals in a city mission. At what price purity?

Still, it's progress. In the old days we would have drowned each other...

andy

Posted: 27.08.2003, 10:11

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

>>Sorry to confuse you, I didn't mean you were good with embarrassed girls

I've always though DavidB was pretty good with embarrassed girls actually.

The problem is that everyone thinks they're right.

And they're not, because I am.

Bernie

Posted: 27.08.2003, 23:02

registered:

Posts: 6

Status: offline
last visit: 29.08.03

Hmmmm Andy - is all I have to say~!

On the topic of church, I will throw a few random thoughts in:

I have been going to a New Frontiers International church which is full of young professional people, fairly wealthy, meets in a posh school hall and is what I would call a commuter church. They are fairly new, about 3 years old and fund a hostel for the homeless in the local area.

Although I have found it a very friendly and social place, I do get the feeling they think they are the only ones who do 'church' right.

On thinking and praying about it, I feel I need to attend a church closer to home, with stronger community links and the chance to do some youthwork, although may miss out on some of the social interaction. On saying this to a few people from church, was met with almost unbelief as to why I would want to leave, what was wrong with me rather than what was not right about the church.

And yet I do believe church is important, for me to recieve and meet with God with other christians and for the church to serve the community and meet peoples needs. I do come back to the only way to change things is to be in the system but it can be very frustrating.

davidb

Posted: 28.08.2003, 12:39

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

All the best with your thinking about which church to belong to, Bernie.

I think what you say about changing things from within is very important - I don't ever want to become a bitter outsider, although I'm tempted to be most weeks! Surely with so many people who feel like we do in churches, sooner or later things will have to change. In fact, they are already changing, I'm sure.

A link between Bernie's, Andy's and my posts is the issue of *humility*. There seems to be nowhere near enough of it in many churches. Do I have the guts to say, to myself and in church, 'I believe x, but I'll gladly love and work with someone who believes y, and I'll even give them real chances to change my mind?' I'm not sure, but I'm closer to this now than I would have been 8 years ago.

davidb

Posted: 28.08.2003, 12:47

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

>>Sorry to confuse you, I didn't mean you were good with embarrassed girls - I meant you were good at making Sunday school enjoyable and not embarrassing.

This is one of the things that I'm irked with myself about - in truth, I don't believe I am any good at doing Sunday School. This puts me on the defensive when people lecture me about how to be a good Sunday School teacher. It's just that I don't think they were passing on any advice that I'm not already acting on.

At least I don't think my Sunday School lessons are embarrassing to the kids. But I don't think they're enjoyable either, despite my best efforts. The kids are restless, vocally critical and argumentative. For their pains, they've got me as the junior youth group leader this year, so they don't even escape having graduated from the 10-12s class. Humph. Hopefully it'll be better this year.

Bernie

Posted: 28.08.2003, 20:05

registered:

Posts: 6

Status: offline
last visit: 29.08.03

David

Having led a group with you this year at camp, I was very impressed with how you were with the kids, you are very real and genuine and kids always respond to that. You are encouraging and good at listening. You are calm and cool and have a genuine desire to help young people know more about Jesus. The Biblical stuff you prepared on revelation and the small group sessions was superb.

I think 10-12's are probably the worst age group, they are not kids and yet not grown up. Well done for presevering!

andy

Posted: 29.08.2003, 09:55

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

I have a friend who went to an NFI church and from what he said about it it sounded like it had a terrible culture - similar to what you describe B. People were very close-minded and when he went up for prayer after one service everyone he knew asked him what was `wrong'. Total denial of any need for growth or change and also denial of emotion, which is where we started.

DavidB and Bernie, I love you

davidb

Posted: 29.08.2003, 11:55

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

Thanks for the encouragement, guys

Bernie

Posted: 29.08.2003, 21:49

registered:

Posts: 6

Status: offline
last visit: 29.08.03

Oh Andy - you say the sweetest things!

On subject of NFI, I have been asked to lead a bible study in my housegroup, no probs have done this sort of thing before. I was then asked to attend a session on how to lead a bible study and also warned that i would get feedback on how my bible study was. Mmmmm.

1:1 the people are great, but the whole church culture thing gets in the way. That saying we did have a challenging housegroup this week on the holiness of God and how we can be holy. Thinking about the times I moan about my boss, is that holy, times when I think negative things, is that holy... There is still a long way to go!

Midge

Posted: 31.08.2003, 22:39

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>I don't believe I am any good at doing Sunday School.

If you're not, then I don't know who would be!

>>warned that i would get feedback on how my bible study was.

I always think feedback is a good thing - as long as it's sympathetic, constructive feedback. In the Bible study group I'm in, there's no regular system of telling people what we thought of how they led, so the people who are less confident of themselves probably often just keep worrying they're not doing it well, and don't get enough encouragement.

Interesting to hear these reports about NFI churches. My local NFI church seems to be open-minded towards other churches, tho I haven't gone there often enough to really feel what their culture's like.

Related to humility again, another thing that makes me really sad is backbiting and nastiness, not between churches, but between individuals in a church. A friend of mine finally gave up going to church because of backbiting. It's nothing new tho - most of the churches Paul wrote to seem to have had these kinds of people (e.g. Galatians 5:15). But you'd hope that people who really have the Holy Spirit would change and be able to forgive and bear with each other and not poison the atmosphere of the church.

Talking of holiness, I was thinking of posting something about that - when I get the chance to think a bit more about it...

andy

Posted: 01.09.2003, 09:40

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

I'm 100% against feedback of any kind.

Completely agree with the backbiting stuff. And I hate the way the "we are nice" culture pushes it underground so it's all so hidden.

Midge

Posted: 06.09.2003, 23:34

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>>Don't even get me started about Sunday School

Sounds like something you need to get off your chest

Can't've been worse than mine...

andy

Posted: 08.09.2003, 09:20

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

I just object to the whole concept of Sunday School.

davidb

Posted: 08.09.2003, 14:50

registered:

Posts: 280

Status: offline
last visit: 04.05.05

You mean the name, 'Sunday School', or the idea that kids go to separate groups for part of the service? I think the latter is reasonable, as kids get bored of what the adults are doing, but maybe I'm not thinking radically enough!

andy

Posted: 08.09.2003, 15:56

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

Actually I take it back. I'm just ranting.

Midge

Posted: 10.09.2003, 17:58

registered:

Posts: 620

Status: offline
last visit: 20.09.06

>> kids get bored of what the adults are doing, but maybe I'm not thinking radically enough!

Have you ever experienced "All-Age Learning"?... another thing my church tried.

andy

Posted: 12.09.2003, 09:30

registered:

Posts: 792

Status: online

Sounds adequately painful.